EP6: What’s So Wrong With Being Mediocre?

Less Alone: A Podcast About Connection, Episode 6: What's So Wrong With Being Mediocre?


If you’re an all-or-nothing type, a high-achiever, if you feel like what you do is NEVER enough or if you always give 110% at everything you attempt, (or know someone like this) you’re gonna love this episode! This episode is all about our connection to our internal drive, ambition, and the will to succeed! We discuss “mediocrity” (a big taboo for perfectionists and overachievers.) We talk about how living passionately (and sometimes extremely) is the only way that some of us feel our lives have meaning and worth. We talk about how being driven and productive can be an asset but how, on the flip side, this constant internal drive can also be incredibly exhausting and, at times, detrimental. We look at why some of us feel the need to prove our worth and when ambition stops being a good thing and starts to become a shield, or defense mechanism, to larger issues we may not want to look at. As always, we talk candidly about our own personal experiences and bring the real-ness. Be sure to tune in for this episode!  

Key Points From This Episode:

  • Reader question about how to go from an acquaintance to a friend 
  • How to strike the right balance between being overly-sensitive vs. thick-skinned in potential friendships
  • We talk about last episode’s challenge: giving sincere compliments about non-physical attributes 
  • The impact of our Love Languages 
  • How (sincere) compliments are great connectors and help others open up
  • The advantages of being serious and driven
  • How Brené Brown feels perfectionism is a debilitating defense mechanism
  • How to embrace your intensity and music to “chill” to 
  • How perfectionism can lead to procrastination  
  • Seven questions to find out if you’re a perfectionist or an over functioner
  • Transitioning from the first to the second mountain: from self-oriented to other-orientated. 
  • How our society focuses on the self rather than on community
  • Be obsessed or be average: all-in kind of people
  • The societal pressure and internal conflict around being a working mom
  • And much more! 

Resources and Links Mentioned in The Episode:

Intro and Outro Music Credit: Night Owl by Broke for Free from the Album Directionless EP (Creative Commons License)

P.S. Be sure to Rate, Review and Subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcast player!


S01 EPISODE 06 Less Alone Podcast Transcript 


[0:00:01.5] AMY MOORE: We are three friends exploring connection. From the coffee shop to the podcast studio. I’m Amy.

[0:00:06.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I’m Anna.

[0:00:06.7] ERIN LINEHAN: I’m Erin.


[0:00:14.9] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Guess what I just did?

[0:00:15.8] ERIN LINEHAN: What?

[0:00:16.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I just put a whole bunch of –

[0:00:17.8] ERIN LINEHAN: Paper towels.

[0:00:18.4] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Paper towels under my bra, because last time was so hot.

[0:00:22.7] AMY MOORE: Sweating here.

[0:00:23.7] ERIN LINEHAN: That’s what she told me at the coffee shop yesterday and she’s like, “You know what I do? There’s something on Amazon for that too.” That’s good.

[0:00:30.4] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Boob sweat. There’s a solution to that.

[0:00:31.5] AMY MOORE: The worst.

[0:00:32.5] ERIN LINEHAN: Yes, the worst.

[0:00:34.2] ANNA NEWELL JONES: The worst. We’re back.

[0:00:37.7] AMY MOORE: We’re back. Okay. All right.

[0:00:42.8] ANNA NEWELL JONES: We’re apparently not quite awake yet. All right, everybody. Welcome back.

[0:00:49.3] AMY MOORE: Yeah, episode six. Today is ‘What’s wrong with being mediocre?’

[0:00:55.4] ERIN LINEHAN: Well, we’ll get to that.

[0:00:58.7] ANNA NEWELL JONES: That’s a big one.

[0:00:59.4] AMY MOORE: It is a big one.

[0:01:01.1] AMY MOORE: Yeah, so talking about the connection to work, or productivity, or a drive to succeed that we all have, you all might have, we’ll see.

[0:01:11.0] ERIN LINEHAN: Right. Yup.

[0:01:13.4] AMY MOORE: Before that, just want to say again, We Edit Podcasts.

[0:01:17.2] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Awesome.

[0:01:18.2] ERIN LINEHAN: Awesome.

[0:01:19.2] ANNA NEWELL JONES: We love them.

[0:01:20.0] ERIN LINEHAN: We love them and they are super helpful in all our editing needs.

[0:01:25.0] ANNA NEWELL JONES: They get it done. They do our transcripts.

[0:01:26.8] ERIN LINEHAN: 48-hour turnaround.

[0:01:28.2] ANNA NEWELL JONES: It’s so good. It would it would take us literally how many hours? So many hours.

[0:01:33.2] AMY MOORE: So many.

[0:01:33.9] ERIN LINEHAN: Well, we experimented – a situation that happened at the beginning is too –

[0:01:36.9] AMY MOORE: Oh, brutal.

[0:01:38.0] ERIN LINEHAN: It was brutal.

[0:01:39.2] ANNA NEWELL JONES: It saves us so much time and they do a great job.

[0:01:41.5] AMY MOORE: Yes. They’ve offered a 20% off.

[0:01:45.4] ANNA NEWELL JONES: All you have to do is use the code LessAlonePodcast and get 20% off for your first month.

[0:01:51.0] ERIN LINEHAN: Boom.

[0:01:51.4] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Pretty awesome.

[0:01:52.5] AMY MOORE: Thank you.

[0:01:53.0] ERIN LINEHAN: It was awesome.

[0:01:53.6] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. We really, really enjoy them. All right, so guess what? We have a calling question. Let’s listen to it. I’m so excited about this. Okay.

[0:02:03.2] Caller: Yes. Hi. I’d prefer not to give my name, but I’m from Denver, longtime listener, first-time caller. I was hoping to get the Less Alone Podcast crew’s opinion on a situation. I recently found myself with a couple of open slots on my friendship roster and I was looking to level jump an acquaintance of mine to a full-fledged friend. I guess, you should know quickly that this is just a standard run-of-the-mill platonic male friendship. I was looking to start up nothing crazy or nothing weird like that.

Anyway, I’ve worked with this dude a few times and we’ve seem to have some things in common and we’ve always got along. I asked him, “If you ever wanted to hang out.” I was met with a slightly less than enthusiastic, “Yeah, maybe. We’ll have to see.” I said, “Cool,” and just went about my work. In the back of my head I was thinking, “That was weird. Why don’t they want to hang out with me?” I’m really not sure how to proceed from here and I don’t want to force a friendship upon him if he’s not really looking for one. Yet at the same time, we’ve always gotten along. I think we could be solid friends. I don’t know. Do you have any suggestions on that? I mean, do I just drop it and maintain the acquaintanceship, or do I push harder for the friendship? I don’t know. I don’t want to it to turn it into something weird. I don’t know. I’d love any suggestions you could give me. Thank you. Bye.

[0:03:19.4] AMY MOORE: Thanks, caller.

[0:03:20.5] ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah, caller. 

[0:03:22.2] ANNA NEWELL JONES: That was so cool to hear. What do you two think?

[0:03:27.0] AMY MOORE: Well, I think a couple things: one, the caller could wait to see if that person responds and waits to see if there’s any – I don’t know. Does that person then initiate back at all? Is there any give-and-take? He’s trying. Then do you hold –

[0:03:46.0] ANNA NEWELL JONES: It doesn’t sound like it.

[0:03:47.4] AMY MOORE: No?

[0:03:48.2] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, it doesn’t sound like it.

[0:03:49.5] AMY MOORE: Well then, I would say try it again.

[0:03:51.9] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Oh, yeah?

[0:03:52.7] AMY MOORE: Yeah.

[0:03:53.7] ERIN LINEHAN: I say try it again with, or maybe start with an activity. Do whatever it is that you want to go do. Go get coffee, or go get a beer, or whatever it is that –

[0:04:06.6] AMY MOORE: Go watch a game.

[0:04:07.8] ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah. Whatever dudes do.

[0:04:10.3] AMY MOORE: I think I think the one thing I’m thinking is maybe not – just try it once. Who knows? Maybe that guy had something going on that day, or maybe he was distracted.

[0:04:20.4] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. It sounds maybe there was a distraction..

[0:04:23.6] AMY MOORE: Yeah. Maybe it just wasn’t – maybe he would get a different reaction if you tried. Just try it again, but maybe with a specific activity.

[0:04:35.0] ERIN LINEHAN: Or you just caught – I don’t know if this is too much, but hey, what if you just directly – if you just directly said something.

[0:04:43.4] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Like what?

[0:04:45.4] ERIN LINEHAN: Like, “I didn’t mean to be weird, or awkward, or maybe that’s just me.” Yeah. Like, “Hey, I just wanted to hang out.” Just put it out there.

[0:04:56.7] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Just be direct?

[0:04:57.0] ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah. Maybe that’s too much, but –

[0:05:00.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I thought is if you’ve asked once, or you suggested it and someone – they’re like, “Yeah, sure,” but they’re not that into it.

[0:05:11.5] ERIN LINEHAN: You can tell when people are not into it.

[0:05:13.2] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. I mean, I am getting a feeling that he’s just not into it. It’s like a polite like, “Yeah, sure. We should hang out.”

[0:05:21.5] ERIN LINEHAN: When you see people and they’re – you haven’t seen them for a long time and they’re like, “Oh, we should do something,” but you’re not being truthful. Got something.

[0:05:30.1] ANNA NEWELL JONES: If someone wants to do something, they will do it. They don’t need convincing. It’s like –

[0:05:34.7] AMY MOORE: That’s true. Do you think move on?

[0:05:38.6] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I think, don’t push it. I think he’s just not that into you in a way, but I mean, I also don’t think it would hurt to throw it out there one more time if this caller is truly like, “I think we could be really good friends,” or “I want to level jump this person.”

[0:05:56.5] ERIN LINEHAN: Start a podcast. That’s what I suggest.

[0:06:00.8] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, that would definitely work.

[0:06:01.8] ERIN LINEHAN: Level jumping.

[0:06:03.8] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Hey, acquaintance. Do you want to start a podcast together? Yeah, so anything else? What do you think? Solid?

[0:06:11.0] AMY MOORE: Solid. Yeah, I’d be curious to see it what happens.

[0:06:15.5] ERIN LINEHAN: Follow up, caller.

[0:06:16.8] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, let us know. If anyone else has any questions, or things going on, 775-591-8860 and you might be featured on the show too. Thanks for calling.

[0:06:28.2] ERIN LINEHAN: Thank you.

[0:06:29.7] ANNA NEWELL JONES: All right. Okay, so our last episode’s to-do was to compliment three women on non-physical attributes. How did that go for you two?

[0:06:38.5] ERIN LINEHAN: Well, I complimented my friend who is the manager of a yoga studio and she – I hadn’t been there for a while and I’d walked in and the energy of the place and yoga studios I think can go sometimes pretty pretentious. Not all the time, but it’s not the warmest environment because you need to be yoga-y. If you’re not yoga-y, then it feels weird to be there. I hadn’t been there in a while and they’ve been working on – their community at this yoga studio in particular is so strong and it’s amazing. The leadership, so the owner and the manager, the manager is my friend.

I was just so proud of her. It was this overwhelming like, this is so amazing. I think I appreciate it much more now, because I’m in business too. It was just so good. We talk every Monday morning. Well we haven’t in a while. When people give you genuine compliments, then it’s just so – it lands different than if you just say, “Oh, yeah. Your hair looks good today, or whatever.”

[0:07:35.7] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Which is nice to hear, but it’s different.

[0:07:36.7] ERIN LINEHAN: It is nice to hear.

[0:07:37.8] AMY MOORE: Yeah, totally.

[0:07:39.2] ERIN LINEHAN: Words like, “Oh.” Because it takes a second I think for it to come in to the person and there’s a – then it clicks and then the person lights up, or glows in a way that feels solid, like standing in their truth, what we talked about last time. I’m not great with verbal affirmation of my love language, but when I have it and I can share that, then it lands well.

[0:08:03.0] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Is that your Love Language?

[0:08:03.6] ERIN LINEHAN: No. That is gifts and verbal affirmations are on the bottom. Physical touch, Anna. 

[0:08:07.1] AMY MOORE: Says the hugger. 

[0:08:11.9] ERIN LINEHAN: So acts of service and physical touch. 

[0:08:13.9] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Okay, what about you Amy? I’m just curious.

[0:08:16.3] AMY MOORE: I don’t remember. I don’t remember. I should do that again, really. How about you?

[0:08:20.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Mine’s verbal affirmations and quality time.

[0:08:25.1] ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah, quality time is up there too. Yeah.

[0:08:25.8] AMY MOORE: Quality time I think was one for me.

[0:08:28.2] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. A little nugget. Got to learn these things about you two. Okay, so that’s awesome. Sounds like it went well.

[0:08:35.5] ERIN LINEHAN: That did go well. Yeah. It was just – Yeah, it’s just nice to be able to do it.

[0:08:39.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. I noticed that people really love hearing feedback about themselves.

[0:08:43.8] AMY MOORE: Oh, yes. Yes.

[0:08:45.6] ANNA NEWELL JONES: When you say something complimentary about something that’s non-physical. It’s just like, “Oh, someone really saw what I’m doing.” For this challenge, one of the examples I have is I called my sister, actually talking about this episode and her perception of it and all of this. She and I was like, “I knew you’d be the person to ask about this.” She just was like, “Oh.” Then she had another great thing to say about – that was super insightful that I knew she would have. It was just, people love hearing those kinds of feedback, I think even if it’s not their –

[0:09:24.0] AMY MOORE: I think it’s also really a great way to connect and let someone become a little bit more vulnerable. If you are genuinely complimenting someone about some personal attribute or whatever, I did that over the weekend. I think, just some people can open up a little bit more, or they are more likely to then give more, whether it’s physical, or whether it’s emotional, or whatever. It opens up that connection more. It takes your guard down and you’re like, “Okay.” Makes a safe space.

[0:10:00.5] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Well, and it’s like, I’m being seen for these things that I’m bringing to the table. It’s like, “I want to bring more of those things to the table maybe.”

[0:10:07.9] ERIN LINEHAN: On the flipside, if someone gives you a bullshit, blowing smoke up your ass compliment, it feels just gross. Yes.

[0:10:17.4] AMY MOORE: Yeah. I always feel like that when I give someone a compliment and they’re genuinely being like, “Oh, yeah. I really like this.” Then they’re like, “Give me one right back.” Like, “Oh, we don’t really need to do that.”

[0:10:28.1] ERIN LINEHAN: No. I wasn’t saying that so you would tell me something back.

[0:10:31.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, it’s my hair is not that great. No, we don’t need to do that. Just take it. Just say, “Thank you. We’re good.” Whatever. Yeah, so we would love to hear how your experience was with that. We have another awesome five-star review.

[0:10:46.7] AMY MOORE: Yes. We do thank you, thank you 29LucyJane66.

[0:10:52.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I love it.

[0:10:53.0] AMY MOORE: I love it too. Here’s what it says: “Connection is everything! Love this podcast. We have been increasingly moving away from the people we love, because of busyness and life. This gathering of friends to chat about connection and deep relationships is needed. My own Golden Girls group has kept me afloat for years. Maybe we should have a podcast.” Thinking emoji.

[0:11:20.5] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I totally think you should.

[0:11:21.6] ERIN LINEHAN: Do it, Lucy Jane.

[0:11:23.5] AMY MOORE: Yes. That’s so great. Thank you.

[0:11:24.9] ANNA NEWELL JONES: That was one it’s ready to listen to.

[0:11:26.7] ERIN LINEHAN: The Golden Girls House.

[0:11:28.5] AMY MOORE: That’s awesome.

[0:11:29.7] ANNA NEWELL JONES: That’s so awesome.

[0:11:30.7] AMY MOORE: That is really great. Thank you.

[0:11:32.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, your reviews help the show be found. We’re so, so thankful for those. Keep them coming. Share them with your friends and your review might just be featured on the podcast. Keep them coming. We love hearing from you.

[0:11:44.1] AMY MOORE: Awesome.

[0:11:44.8] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Okay. Gosh, this is a big one. The connection to productivities/achievement. There’s a lot that comes up with this. This is all the things that come to mind when we talk about this is connection to work, productivity, the internal drive to succeed, the hustle for worthiness, ala Brené Brown, the obsession with the doing over functioning, high-achieving, perfectionism, ambition, hustle, workaholism, the inability to settle once you hit your goal. A lot of stuff, right?

[0:12:15.1] ERIN LINEHAN: A lot of stuff.

[0:12:15.9] AMY MOORE: We’re back to a heavy one, folks.

[0:12:19.7] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. It’s interesting. When we had first talked about doing this episode, I was like, “Yeah, a connection to work. Yeah, that’s great. I’m totally cool with that,” Then Erin had a wonderful insight about, let’s make it the connection to the drive, the ambition. That made me so uncomfortable.

[0:12:37.2] ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah?

[0:12:38.0] ANNA NEWELL JONES: That part.

[0:12:41.1] AMY MOORE: Interesting.

[0:12:41.7] ERIN LINEHAN: You have to say more about it. We can just drop the mic and walk away.

[0:12:45.4] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Bye. All said. See you. Said what I needed to say about that one. Yeah, so it’s like, I’m okay with talking about the work piece, but the idea of my drive and my ambition, that I’m not as comfortable talking about.

[0:13:02.6] ERIN LINEHAN: What happens?

[0:13:04.1] ANNA NEWELL JONES: It makes me not want to go there. If I cry on this episode, it might happen.

[0:13:10.1] AMY MOORE: It’s okay, Anna. It’s okay.

[0:13:11.5] ERIN LINEHAN: It’s all right.

[0:13:13.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. I’m just telling you, I feel a little nervous about talking about this. I went to the bathroom four times before this episode started.

[0:13:20.4] AMY MOORE: You did. I was noticing you to go to the bathroom quite a bit.

[0:13:23.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. I just blame it on the coffee, but I’m like, “You know what? That’s what happens if I get nervous.”

[0:13:27.8] AMY MOORE: You’re squirming over there.

[0:13:29.7] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, you can feel it. You’re picking up what I’m putting down here.

[0:13:32.6] AMY MOORE: Yeah. It’s okay. We had that great conversation last episode that it’s so nice that we can just show up as we are for each of these studio recordings, and sometimes they’re heavy and sometimes they’re crazy, and sometimes they’re goofy. Today, we’ll just see what’s going to happen.

[0:13:50.8] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Total grab bag. I have to tell you, I really find myself thinking a lot about our episodes after we listen to it, we record them and then we listen to, or do that process to start the editing and start pulling the info for the sneak peeks and all of that. It felt, like during that episode, and we said this in the studio that it felt we were stoned. We were slap-happy. It was an odd episode.

[0:14:14.9] AMY MOORE: Slap-happy recording.

[0:14:16.4] ANNA NEWELL JONES: It was a little different, right?

[0:14:16.8] AMY MOORE: We were not stoned.

[0:14:17.7] ANNA NEWELL JONES: We were not stoned. No. Not at all. Stone-cold sober, which makes it even sillier. I was talking to Erin, girl Erin here. My husband is also Aaron, so I feel I have to always clarify that. It felt this twin high that I get when I’m with my twin sister. It’s interesting that we were talking about what’s up with women. Then we had this giddy, silly twin high giggle fest of an episode talking about –

[0:14:43.4] ERIN LINEHAN: Oh, like stomach hurt laughter. We’d edit a lot of the laughter out, because it was –

[0:14:48.0] ANNA NEWELL JONES: It was a little painful for the listener. We did that for you.

[0:14:52.3] ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah. Right.

[0:14:53.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Merry Christmas. You don’t need four minutes of us giggling in your earholes; the hot eardrum action.

[0:15:02.1] AMY MOORE: Oh, boy.

[0:15:03.1] ERIN LINEHAN: That’s right.

[0:15:04.2] AMY MOORE: Here we go.

[0:15:05.2] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Okay. Talking about another thing from the last episode, okay, you two both said you were serious. This is coming up with the sicknesses and the secret, so I feel I have to tell you this because I’m like, I was feeling really insecure about this. You two you said are serious introverts, self-proclaimed, right?

[0:15:24.4] AMY MOORE: I would say I’m not an introvert.

[0:15:25.8] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Or extrovert. Extrovert.

[0:15:27.0] AMY MOORE: I’m on the more in the middle now.

[0:15:28.7] ERIN LINEHAN: I’m in the middle now too.

[0:15:29.5] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Okay, so more serious.

[0:15:31.7] ERIN LINEHAN: More serious. Truth be told is that I was growing up. That’s why I don’t – I guess how life has unfolded is that I feel very serious now. I think partially because I’m in serious world as a therapist now, and so I’m with heavy stuff all the time. I always talk about this with my therapist that I need to work on play more, because I am like – this drive, this whole episode brings home like, “Oh, this is what I struggle with all the time, because I –” With all of this, the drive and the seriousness and all that, I get a lot of shit done. I’m very productive, but then there needs to be some evening of the scales, so that it’s not all serious all the time.

When I catch myself being serious, like I’m all the time or I feel like, “Well, I haven’t laughed that twinning laugh.” I haven’t laughed like that in a long time. I’m like, “Why do I not have this in my life all the time?” Cause deep in me, I like to be goofy and like to laugh at things.

[0:16:41.9] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Your line of work is serious. You find yourself being – showing up in that way professionally, so I’m sure that that’s encouraged obviously in your profession. Yeah, so I started feeling insecure like, “Oh, maybe they – how are we friends if I’m a silly introvert and they’re more serious extroverts?” I started feeling insecure, why does this work? How does this work? Is this doomed? Isn’t that interesting?

[0:17:14.4] AMY MOORE: Super interesting.

[0:17:15.5] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I just wanted to bring that up, because I was feeling insecure about that. I was like, “Okay the sickness is in the secrets. I got to tell you all what’s happening with me here.”

[0:17:24.4] AMY MOORE: Oh, my God. That’s so good. Yeah.

[0:17:26.6] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. I started thinking why do I feel insecure about that?

[0:17:31.7] AMY MOORE: I think it’s good for me. You’re good for me.

[0:17:33.5] ERIN LINEHAN: Absolutely. You’re good for me too.

[0:17:34.5] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I think you’re good for me too.

[0:17:36.2] AMY MOORE: It’s a balance.

[0:17:37.4] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, yeah. Balance.

[0:17:38.9] AMY MOORE: It’s a beautiful thing when I think people are different and then they can –

[0:17:41.7] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Complimentary.

[0:17:42.7] AMY MOORE: Yeah. You can really appreciate the differences and then still have that close relationship. It’s just open communication and acceptance of someone else and being respectful, right?

[0:17:55.8] ERIN LINEHAN: Well, it’s not like you can’t be serious, because you –

[0:17:58.1] AMY MOORE: Yeah, right.

[0:17:58.9] ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah. Maybe you don’t like to dive into the depths and you’d rather be sillier, right? That’s good for the two of us to be able to be silly. I don’t want to say service, because that’s not what it is, but keep things lighter. Then it is good for you, for us to push you to go into the depths. That’s why we’re friends – that compliment.

[0:18:22.0] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, it was interesting thinking like, “Oh, maybe they won’t –”

[0:18:26.2] ERIN LINEHAN: We’re going to kick you out of tribe?

[0:18:28.7] AMY MOORE: Never.

[0:18:28.8] ERIN LINEHAN: Good thing we’re talking about shame on this episode. God. No.

[0:18:31.6] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Gosh. Just some big things.

[0:18:32.9] ERIN LINEHAN: No. We up leveled.

[0:18:34.6] ANNA NEWELL JONES: We up leveled. It’s on speed dial. Okay. I love you two. Yeah, I felt like I had to –

[0:18:40.5] ERIN LINEHAN: You pick up the phone for me, Anna.

[0:18:42.0] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I felt I had to tell you two that. What better place than – in the podcast, yes.

[0:18:47.0] AMY MOORE: Just broadcast it.

[0:18:48.0] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. Hey, insecurity. Hello. Nice to meet you.

[0:18:51.6] AMY MOORE: Good content. That’s good content.

[0:18:53.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Good content. Oh, gosh. Ok. Brené Brown.

[0:18:58.0] AMY MOORE: Oh, love her.

[0:18:59.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: She is the –

[0:19:00.1] ERIN LINEHAN: Talks about the hustle for in the –

[0:19:01.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Pioneer of this?

[0:19:02.9] ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah. Well, her whole thing’s on shame, right? Vulnerability, right? Amy, you read that quote because you have the best radio voice.

[0:19:10.1] ANNA NEWELL JONES: You’re hired.

[0:19:11.0] AMY MOORE: Brené Brown says: “Perfectionism is not the same thing as striving to be your best. Perfectionism is the belief that if we live perfect, look perfect and act perfect, we can minimize or avoid the pain of blame, judgment and shame. It’s a shield. It’s a 20-ton shield that we lug around, thinking it will protect us, when in fact it’s the thing that’s really preventing us from flight.” Ooh, that’s good.

[0:19:40.8] ERIN LINEHAN: I feel it punches me in the gut.

[0:19:43.5] AMY MOORE: Yeah. Do I see tears in your eyes?

[0:19:45.1] ERIN LINEHAN: Well, close. Yeah, that’s why I couldn’t have read it. I was like, “Oh, that’s good thing I didn’t read it, because I probably would’ve choked up during that.”

[0:19:51.5] AMY MOORE: That’s good. It’s really good.

[0:19:53.5] ERIN LINEHAN: Because for a long time, I didn’t think perfectionism was a thing for me. Then when I was going through my healing touch apprenticeship, my mentor mentioned something offhandedly like, “Oh, yeah. I get a lot of perfectionists.” I was like, “Oh, that’s not me.” Then after things and I’m like, “Oh, I’m not super detail-oriented and I don’t – outwardly, I’m not super made up, or those and that’s not what this is.” It’s that I need to do – the striving is I have to be very, very careful of where this is coming from. This is striving and this is a healthy like, I’m trying to be my best for the purpose of me, or is this striving because I’m trying to hide whatever it is that I’m feeling bad about?

[0:20:37.7] AMY MOORE: Perfectionism is definitely something I – it’s one of my struggles. It’s just hard. I think it’s just – Oh, gosh. It’s hard. Wanting to always project the – I mean, I do. I’m totally that type A perfectionist in all areas. I’ve always wanted to be chill.

[0:21:03.7] ERIN LINEHAN: No way.

[0:21:04.3] AMY MOORE: That’s always been my thing. I just really want to be – I want to be relaxed. I always wanted someone to tell me, “Oh, Amy. She’s chill.” I remember it was a thing in high school where I was like, “I just try to be relaxed. Try to be relaxed.” It’s so not in me. Lately, I feel I got to just embrace this. I do think it’s been over the years as I’ve worked on my own shit now and then. Or well, constantly, let’s be honest. I feel I just got to just embrace this.

[0:21:41.0] ERIN LINEHAN: The intensity.

[0:21:42.5] AMY MOORE: The intensity.

[0:21:43.6] ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah, that’s what people – if you want to send me to spin and flip, call me intense, but you mean it as not a compliment.

[0:21:52.8] AMY MOORE: Oh, that’s happened to me in high school.

[0:21:54.6] ERIN LINEHAN: Throws me over the edge.

[0:21:57.0] AMY MOORE: It’s something I’ve had to work through for a long time.

[0:21:59.1] ERIN LINEHAN: It comes up repeatedly like, “Oh, they’re talking about my –”

[0:22:03.0] AMY MOORE: Then when someone loves the intensity it’s like the best thing ever.

[0:22:07.2] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I didn’t even notice it in either of you.

[0:22:09.8] ERIN LINEHAN: Really?

[0:22:10.9] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, because you’re intense too. That’s why.

[0:22:12.8] AMY MOORE: Anna.

[0:22:13.3] ERIN LINEHAN: Anna. She’s goofy, but she’s also intense, people.

[0:22:16.9] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Super goofy intense. That’s me.

[0:22:20.5] ERIN LINEHAN: When you were talking about being wanting to be relaxed, I was this – I was in the car. I was talking to someone. Someone was in the car with me. I was listening to a tribe called quest and they’re so chill. I was like, “Those are the people that I would love to hang out with.” Then I would hang out with them and they would be too chill for me. This is the –

[0:22:37.6] AMY MOORE: Let’s use them. Let’s move through it.

[0:22:39.1] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Come on. Yeah.

[0:22:41.1] ERIN LINEHAN: Just that kind of thing. I was listening to a lot of Bob Marley in the car, because it pulls me down and I’m like, “Oh, that dude is – All right, this is what I needed. Why am I listening to the same stuff I listen to in 1998?”

[0:22:54.4] AMY MOORE: It is weird. I’m thinking a lot about –

[0:22:57.1] ERIN LINEHAN: Lively up yourself. Oh, come on. Trenchtown Rock. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

[0:23:03.5] ANNA NEWELL JONES: The Notorious BIG came on that, a song [inaudible 0:23:07.3]. I was like, “Oh, yeah.  Here we go.”

[0:23:09.9] AMY MOORE: Mine, it’s just all about Farside lately.

[0:23:12.3] ERIN LINEHAN: Really?

[0:23:12.9] AMY MOORE: Yes. It is. That’s all high school for me.

[0:23:17.5] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Far side, like the comic?

[0:23:20.4] AMY MOORE: No. Well, they have a comic on top of their album. Yeah, the bizarre ride.

[0:23:23.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: It’s different. It’s different.

[0:23:24.4] ERIN LINEHAN: Oh, I was thinking like The Far Side in the newspaper when we were kids.

[0:23:28.6] AMY MOORE: Oh, no, no. I was going to pull up the – no, this was back in my high school days. Music Farside.

[0:23:35.0] ANNA NEWELL JONES: You introduced me to that. Was it a Minnesota thing? Because I didn’t –

[0:23:38.5] AMY MOORE: I don’t know.

[0:23:40.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: It wasn’t a thing for the high schools I was at. I need to study up on this band. They’re solid though.

[0:23:48.4] AMY MOORE: All right, good to know. Just dropped my headphones. Hello.

[0:23:51.0] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Perfectionism. I use that to my advantage with not cleaning the house, because I find myself thinking, “Well, if I can’t do it perfectly, then I’m going to just wait.”

[0:24:01.3] AMY MOORE: Why do it at all?

[0:24:02.7] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Till I can do it perfectly. Yeah. That’s how it shows up in my life. No cleaning.

[0:24:08.7] AMY MOORE: It could be worse.

[0:24:10.4] ERIN LINEHAN: Good thing we don’t live together.

[0:24:13.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I’m like, “Oh, I can’t scrub this with a toothbrush. Pass.”

[0:24:20.4] ERIN LINEHAN: There is that.

[0:24:21.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: There is that.

[0:24:22.4] AMY MOORE: There is that. I do like how Brené Brown mentions that it is a shield. I think that’s the truth. That’s where like, “Oh, dang it.” You got to get rid of that. You got to dig deep.

[0:24:37.2] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Well, because ultimately –

[0:24:37.6] AMY MOORE: Yeah, to look behind it. Yuck. Yuck.

[0:24:40.9] ERIN LINEHAN: This striving, I think, is what I realize is I’m like, the most interesting people are pretty messy and have – are standing in their power and are pretty messier, or have been and they’ve come through that, or whatever. In my effort to – I mean, I have been plenty messy, so let me just say that. Because sometimes when I’m doing things lined up, then I feel boring. I was talking to my business partner and I’m like, “I don’t know if I need to stop. I don’t have a lot of license left.” I was like, “I might need to cut down on coffee.” She was like, “I’m really all for you drinking coffee, because people need vices. People need some sort of vices.”

[0:25:25.1] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, that’s a pretty good advice.

[0:25:28.3] ERIN LINEHAN: I think that goes along with the thing is like, “Oh, why don’t you eat a vegan diet and stop eating gluten and take out caffeine. Come on.” I mean, I got to stop that. Anyways. There’s self-confession. Stop talking. Okay. Go ahead.

[0:25:44.0] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. I do have to say I’m super excited to talk about this topic, as scary as it is to go there, because I love our last couple episodes, but it’s fun to talk about different levels of – or different things dealing with connection; the way connection works in our life in different areas so. Super excited to dive into this, even though it’s scary.

[0:26:04.9] AMY MOORE: There’s an article. How do you know if you’re a perfectionist over-functioner? Answer these seven questions as honestly as you can. Do we have the seven questions?

[0:26:16.2] ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah, they’re on there.

[0:26:17.5] AMY MOORE: The list of them?

[0:26:18.6] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah.

[0:26:18.7] ERIN LINEHAN: They’re here.

[0:26:19.6] AMY MOORE: Got it. Number one, should we read them out?

[0:26:22.5] ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah.

[0:26:22.7] AMY MOORE: Okay. Number one, are you driven and exhausted, depleted and sad trying to keep up with what you think you “should be doing in your life and work”? Number two, do you feel lousy and “less than,” when you compare yourself to other women, other moms and other professionals? Do you act in your life as if everything is a top urgent priority, whereas actually only a few things truly are? Is your family used to you doing too much and you feel it’s really hard now to break that cycle? Do you feel that asking for help is a sign of weakness and imperfection and you’d rather struggle alone and try to do it all yourself? Is there rampant under-functioning going on in your house, or your job that you know you need to address, but can’t find the courage? Finally, when you stop and take time to really think about it, are you living someone else’s definition of happiness, success and well-being?

[0:27:25.5] ANNA NEWELL JONES: All right, so I –

[0:27:26.2] AMY MOORE: Who’s up? What do you think?

[0:27:28.4] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I just went through and answered yes or no. I got four yeses, one question mark, two nos. I guess, out of seven maybe I’m a perfectionist overachiever?

[0:27:42.9] ERIN LINEHAN: Maybe.

[0:27:45.7] ANNA NEWELL JONES: What about you two? How did you two score on that?

[0:27:48.2] ERIN LINEHAN: I was just listening, so I didn’t really score.

[0:27:50.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: That’s very good.

[0:27:52.5] AMY MOORE: That’s maybe not an over-achieving perfectionist tendency.

[0:27:57.7] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Answers in here. That was good. Good job listening.

[0:28:01.8] ERIN LINEHAN: The part that came up for me is the under-functioning is because I think that when people think they need to do it all and they’re not asking for help, then it naturally makes people – it doesn’t empower people around them to do things. Then I think this pattern of under functioning can happen, where it’s everyone – you don’t need to overdo it in order – like other people can do something, and so I think that it’s almost respectful to allow someone to also be doing as well.

[0:28:27.2] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. That reminds me of parenthood and being like, I remember when my little son was first born. It was like, I made a point of letting my husband do it, even though I thought he might not do it right. I thought if I keep doing it, then I’m going to be the one who’s always doing it, because he doesn’t have the confidence to do it “wrong,” which is it’s great, whatever.

[0:28:56.2] ERIN LINEHAN: Right. Yeah. Amy, thoughts?

[0:28:57.6] AMY MOORE: Yeah, there’s a couple of them that I can definitely relate to, I guess.

[0:29:03.8] ERIN LINEHAN: I recently have listened to an interview. Oprah did an interview on SuperSoul Sunday with David Brooks. Then I watched several other interviews, because I was obsessed with that when I heard about this book, because I was in search of something that I needed something to fill me up. This interview –

[0:29:18.5] ANNA NEWELL JONES: What’s that book called?

[0:29:19.4] ERIN LINEHAN: The Second Mountain is called the book, right? He wrote this book because he was in the middle of a crisis of disconnection. He talks about the first and the second mountain. The first mountain, this is how he defines all this stuff, but see how it registers and how you think about this. The first mountain is based on personal goals. It boosts your ego, it defines the self, it celebrates personal freedom and rewarded with happiness, right? He says that, “I was living a life of lies that our culture tells us.” “If you succeed, you’ll be happy. Or I can make myself happy.” He lived that way, and so he said he valued time over relationships and he was always busy and always on the mood.

This one is super powerful. He said that I had a lot of people that were weekday friends, so I had colleagues that I could go to lunch with, but I had no weekend friends because no one can fight it on me. He had people he could be with, but then there was no one there for him on the weekends, which I think is –

[0:30:12.8] AMY MOORE: It’s very interesting.

[0:30:14.0] ERIN LINEHAN: Very interesting. He said that how you go from the first mountain to the second mountain is he had basically, his life imploded, and so he had a major crisis. How you go from the first mountain to the second one as you reject the lies of society, so that all the shit that society tells you, you have to be successful this way, or you have to be. The example that he gives is that if you lose – if I lose 15 pounds, then I’ll be happy. He was talking about that’s a lie. Or if I make all this money, however much money and I’d do all these things and I’ll finally be happy and that’s the lie that we keep telling ourselves.

Then something happens and he talked about going up the personal goals and then something, and this can happen at any point in life. You go down into the valley. Whether that comes up with someone’s died close to you, you have some crisis, illness, addiction, whatever the thing is, we all fall into something. People are then forced to fall into themselves. He talked about falling into their heart and soul. So good. Then that’s what the valley is. Then he, the point about connection is that he believes that it takes a community to pull us out of the valley and show us a better way. Right.

[0:31:19.6] AMY MOORE: Oh, interesting.

[0:31:23.2] ERIN LINEHAN: That then, I’m getting old.

[0:31:25.4] AMY MOORE: I know.

[0:31:27.0] ERIN LINEHAN: I listened. I was running this weekend and I was like, “Oh, this is so good.” We talked about relationships that everything then focuses in, so on relationship and not on yourself. Here it’s so good, right? When we’re in the valley that he said that there, we have choices, right? That we can either be broken, or that you can be broken open. It’s like, what you do with that. Yes.

The second mountain is time to – is to look beyond ourselves, to serve others and valuing relationships over personal success. This is a time for us to live in wonder, gratitude and hope. I only listened to the first two chapters, but the whole thing was on the importance of finding joy. To just listen – I was listening to this on my long run and it went over the different levels of joy and it was like, “Oh, yeah.” Because I think there’s a difference between happiness and joy. Joy is a robust, more – it doesn’t mean joy isn’t just being happy, or being – no matter what you get in life that you find you’re content with that and then it’s emanating out of you. You really meet joyful people. It’s like, “Oh.” You just want to be around them.

When I was listening to this yesterday and thinking about the episode I was like, “Oh, yes. Exactly. That’s what we need to talk about.” I’m curious about hearing that, what your thoughts are on that book.

[0:32:42.7] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Sounds great.

[0:32:43.2] AMY MOORE: I got to read it.

[0:32:43.9] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I think I need to add into my list

[0:32:46.8] AMY MOORE: I think it’s really interesting to think about the mountain peaks and valleys and then how – it sounds what you’re saying, the first one is all individual and very self-focused. Then you drop or whatever, you bottom out really and you then have to be carried up through community. Then it just sounds it’s much more outward, or I mean, it’s all about relations, right? Relationships with people, and so then you shed that self-centeredness. I would say. I mean, there’s a couple things that I can think of just personally where that is definitely the case, where times of crisis or times in the valley. I have been brought back out through community, which I think is this opening, which is as I’ve gotten older and as I’ve done more work and as life has gone on and events have happened. It is opening. It’s opening to more people, opening to different thoughts, opening to different spiritual ways of life, opening to different program. There’s so much more that I’ve been opened to and there’s no way I would have been able to do that if I hadn’t had these lows, which then bring me out. That’s very interesting.

[0:34:13.6] ERIN LINEHAN: He also talks about historically and I don’t know enough about this just from the brief thing I heard, but he talked about culturally in the 60s, I think, because he referred to Woodstock, but this was the time of being individual and self-autonomy and all the stuff. Then this happened and people moved this way, so we moved away from communities and away from – and everything was individual. We need other people. That’s the thing that we’ve talked about repeatedly with the churches. People aren’t really going to church. Where do you find community? We need to be interconnected, and that’s why I think people feel so disconnected and lonely and why we are ultimately doing this podcast.

[0:34:52.0] AMY MOORE: It’s also super interesting to think about – my mind right now is going to achievement, money, individual, self. Then it’s like, on the other side of that is connection, vulnerability, I don’t know what, but it’s not – 

[0:35:13.7] ERIN LINEHAN: I don’t think they’re mutually exclusive though. I think that you can still be successful –

[0:35:16.7] ANNA NEWELL JONES: No, they can co-exist.

[0:35:18.8] AMY MOORE: Yes. They can co-exist.

[0:35:20.2] ERIN LINEHAN: It’s just the energy you bring to it, I think a lot.

[0:35:23.8] AMY MOORE: Right. I definitely think they can co-exist. I definitely think it takes a lot though. Even in our own culture today, there’s such an individual drive. I mean, being an American.

[0:35:40.6] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I mean, I love that. Yeah.

[0:35:43.4] AMY MOORE: Yeah. The mutual, or the coexistence of it all is I think something –

[0:35:49.4] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Is back.

[0:35:49.9] AMY MOORE: Yes, it does. Definitely worth thinking about, right? Very good. I’m going to have to read that. Yeah, that’s a good find.

[0:35:57.8] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I want to hear it too.

[0:35:59.2] ERIN LINEHAN: David Brooks, high five.

[0:36:00.8] ANNA NEWELL JONES: High five.

[0:36:01.6] AMY MOORE: High five. High five.

[0:36:05.1] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Being mediocre. What’s wrong with being mediocre?

[0:36:10.8] ERIN LINEHAN: Well, being that we’re high achievers and over-functioners –

[0:36:14.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Who? Me?

[0:36:16.2] ERIN LINEHAN: I think I was working on this in my own therapy and my therapist was like, “Well, Erin. What’s wrong with being mediocre?” I cringed and my stomach turned, because everything for me, that makes me feel – if someone called me mediocre, that would be if someone called me boring, or it makes me feel – I don’t have words around and it just makes me feel well, if I can do better, then why wouldn’t I do better?

[0:36:37.9] AMY MOORE: Is it because you want to be special?

[0:36:40.2] ERIN LINEHAN: No. I think it’s because if I was mediocre, then I don’t think that I’m putting my best foot forward. I along with this –

[0:36:52.3] AMY MOORE: Not working hard?

[0:36:53.7] ERIN LINEHAN: I’m not showing up as best as I could. If I’m not showing up as best as I could, that doesn’t mean – that might be if I go on vacation, the best that I could is that I turn my phone off and I’m fully present with the people that I’m just soaking in the environment. Yeah. I don’t know if that makes sense.

[0:37:10.1] AMY MOORE: Yeah.

[0:37:10.7] ANNA NEWELL JONES: That’s the best way you can do that moment is to turn your phone off.

[0:37:15.0] ERIN LINEHAN: Mediocre is fully showing up is not fully showing up as not fully showing up and just half-assing things. I’m not a half-asser at all.

[0:37:22.5] AMY MOORE: No, you are not.

[0:37:24.2] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I heard of this book –

[0:37:25.2] AMY MOORE: What was the longest race you’ve run?

[0:37:27.9] ERIN LINEHAN: A 100K.

[0:37:29.6] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Jeez. So amazing.

[0:37:31.4] AMY MOORE: Not mediocre. 

[0:37:32.4] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Not mediocre. I heard this title of a book name and I’ve never related to a book title so much. It’s called Be Obsessed or be Average. I was like, “Yes.” I didn’t even read it. I was like, “That’s good.”

[0:37:45.1] AMY MOORE: That’s awesome.

[0:37:46.0] ERIN LINEHAN: There’s pictures on the cover.

[0:37:48.4] AMY MOORE: That is so funny.

[0:37:50.7] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I think to me, they are synonymous. Being obsessed means being successful. I am an all-in person and that’s something that is tied with my identity, I’ve noticed. Personally, I think of myself as like, “I’m all in. I’m all in.” That’s how I view things. That’ show I operate if it’s not extreme. That’s why the spending fast has worked for me. I always the tell my Spending Fasters community, I’m like, “It’s okay to be all in.” People who are all in types really have success with that method, spending less method. Yeah, be obsessed or be average.

[0:38:25.9] AMY MOORE: I relate to that.

[0:38:26.7] ERIN LINEHAN: I would say is that I wrote the note about being an average trail runner, because I put all my effort into trail running and I do it the best that I can. The overall results are that I am average at best. I’m not fast. I really enjoy doing it. I do it for myself and it helps me a lot and I really love to be out there exploring. In terms of if we’re looking at external successes, then I am super average in that. I am trying the best that I can, and so it does not make me mediocre. I think that is the difference.

[0:39:00.5] AMY MOORE: That’s interesting.

[0:39:01.4] ANNA NEWELL JONES: You don’t consider that something like a “failure”?

[0:39:04.6] ERIN LINEHAN: No. Because I’m finishing the races, I’m showing up. I’m showing up for myself daily, like taking care of myself.

[0:39:09.8] AMY MOORE: It also sounds like that’s an internal measure. You’re not measuring yourself by some external race time or something. That’s pretty cool.

[0:39:18.0] ERIN LINEHAN: Because I would be go to bed crying afterwards. That’s not what it’s about. Because everyone that I try to convince, I’ve tried to convince Amy and Anna to go trail running with me.

[0:39:29.2] AMY MOORE: I did it a couple times.

[0:39:31.0] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I want to try it. I feel like I might pass out.

[0:39:33.7] AMY MOORE: Baby steps. I’m just –

[0:39:37.1] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I have an inhaler.

[0:39:37.4] AMY MOORE: I would do it again.

[0:39:39.9] ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah. The thing that’s different about trail running is then road running is on the road, I think that there’s this thing that you don’t walk and that you need to keep going, right? On trail running, if you’re going to run up a hill, but you’ve never run up a mountain before –

[0:39:52.1] AMY MOORE: Oh, yeah. We walked. It was great.

[0:39:54.4] ERIN LINEHAN: Then hike. Then when you are on flats and downs generally, then you run. I think it’s just you’re out there doing it and then showing up. You’re just there to enjoy it. That’s mediocre, even though, I don’t know where I’m off on a tangent. Yeah.

[0:40:13.2] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, it’s interesting because like I said, I talked to my little sister about this. This morning actually and I was like, “I just need to get your feelings or thoughts to help me wrap my head around this.” She told me that I’m obsessed that she sees me as being obsessed with achieving. I was like, “Oh, wow.”

[0:40:29.8] ERIN LINEHAN: How did that say with you?

[0:40:31.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I was happy to hear that, honestly. It brought up a lot of stuff, because and I was like, “Well, tell me about that.” Okay, so she said that she admires it, because she doesn’t have it.

[0:40:44.4] ERIN LINEHAN: She doesn’t have it how?

[0:40:45.9] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I don’t know. That would be a good follow-up question that I did not ask her. I like hearing that. I liked hearing that. I get a ton of positive feedback about being achieving and getting stuff done.

[0:40:59.7] AMY MOORE: Me too.

[0:41:00.5] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Our society generally encourages that.

[0:41:02.6] ERIN LINEHAN: Absolutely.

[0:41:04.0] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I feel and this is the part that’s hard to admit. I feel I’m a mediocre mom. My work allows me to – if I’m too busy with work, I don’t have to look at that. It’s much easier for me to build a website than to be like, “I have to worry about the emotional intelligence of my five-year-old son in a society where toxic masculinity is part of our daily life.” It’s much easier for me to just cross off some tasks on a to-do list and focus on that and just say I don’t have time – there’s no time left and here’s an easy justification for that. (heavy sigh)

[0:41:38.7] ERIN LINEHAN: Right. That’s a good share. That’s a good share. Yeah, you breathe into that. That’s good.

[0:41:45.1] AMY MOORE: I think it’s interesting, because my achieving has been a part of my mothering. My life has – my kids and my –

[0:41:53.0] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. You’re a super mom.

[0:41:55.1] AMY MOORE: Yeah. My kids, my home, all of that is ever for nine years. That’s like, where my achieving has been expressed in the last decade, which is pretty interesting.

[0:42:11.8] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I see how you run your house and I’m just like, “Oh, my gosh.” Goals. Hashtag goals. I saw how you –

[0:42:18.7] ERIN LINEHAN: Family values on the refrigerator.

[0:42:21.4] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. I saw your Google calendar and I’m like, “Uh, I need a Google calendar.” I need it – so it’s fun to feed off each other in what works, what doesn’t work. Super moms, I always think I wish my husband is a wonderful dad to our son. I always want – people always notice that about him and I truly think that that’s his purpose in life is to be a dad, honestly. He’s that good at it. No one has ever told me like, “You’re such a great mom.” It’s like, “Oh, man.” I wish I could hear that once.

[0:42:59.2] AMY MOORE: You are a great mom though, Anna.

[0:43:03.6] ANNA NEWELL JONES: It’s achieving and over-achieving. That’s something that I feel mediocre in. Our society tells us you have to – if you work outside the home and focus on your career, then you also have to be an amazing mom. It’s knowing that I’m not the preferred parent and my husband is to our son, that’s really painful. It’s way easier to focus on work and to put my energy into that and it’s hard to admit when and notice that maybe my overachieving is not serving me. How can I show up as a mom that I want to be? Make sure I don’t have any regrets when my son looks back on his childhood, or I look back on my parenting of his formative years. I want to be sure that I’m showing up as the mom I want to be and how do I do that.

[0:43:54.4] AMY MOORE: It’s so hard, I think of career and being a mom, what that all looks like and means and just the internal conflicts that goes on, I think with so many women.

[0:44:07.1] ERIN LINEHAN: Well, because I think it’s an internal conflict, but then it’s also society as a whole.

[0:44:10.8] AMY MOORE: Societal.

[0:44:11.8] ERIN LINEHAN: People love to shame the moms.

[0:44:14.5] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Oh, yeah. I’d literally feel my husband just has to be awake during our son’s life and he’s super dad. Me, it’s I have to be making homemade food and we have to have all these amazing activities and I’m just not doing that. I feel I’m failing. It’s hard.

[0:44:35.5] AMY MOORE: Yeah. You are not alone with that. I mean, I feel – because even –

[0:44:39.1] ANNA NEWELL JONES: It’s never enough. I can never do enough.

[0:44:42.8] AMY MOORE: I think though that’s such a trick with both of it, because even me having being a mom and is my job, then it’s the lack of balance on the career side and then that pull on me. I guess my point is no one.

[0:45:01.2] ERIN LINEHAN: No one’s winning.

[0:45:02.5] AMY MOORE: No one is winning in that.

[0:45:03.7] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Which is effed up.

[0:45:04.6] AMY MOORE: It is. We should’ve brought that up in our what’s up with women episode. Actually, frankly, that could be a whole other episode. Women and –

[0:45:15.6] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Just all the pressure.

[0:45:17.0] AMY MOORE: Yeah. Because you cannot be a high achiever in every area of life, unless you go insane, and feel like something has to give. Yeah.

[0:45:27.4] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. You’re supposed to do all this self-care and you’re supposed to have an amazing marriage and communicate and have friends.

[0:45:35.7] AMY MOORE: I think if you are a high achiever, or you are an achiever you feel that pressure so intensely.

[0:45:42.5] ERIN LINEHAN: It’s crazy. Yes.

[0:45:45.4] AMY MOORE: All right, one thing we thought was fun is that two of the three of us had done the Strengths Finder test. Anna, you ended up doing it recently, right? We all have achiever. It’s one of our top five. I know, achiever is actually my top.

[0:46:02.4] ANNA NEWELL JONES: It’s my top point too.

[0:46:03.0] ERIN LINEHAN: It’s my second one.

[0:46:05.5] AMY MOORE: Interesting. What did you think of that when you saw it, or what was the context of when you took the test, or what was the driver?

[0:46:13.3] ANNA NEWELL JONES: I took the test last night. I guess I was like, “Oh, I need to get this off my to-do list.” I was really surprised to see the definition from the Strength Finders test and what Achiever means. Should I go ahead and read that, because it’s really good. It says: “Your achiever theme helps explain your drive. Achiever describes a constant need for achievement. You feel as if every day starts at zero, agreed. By the end of the day, you must achieve something tangible in order to feel good about yourself and by every day, you mean every single day; work days, weekends, vacations. No matter how much you may feel you deserve a day of rest, if the day passes without some form of achievement, no matter how small you will feel dissatisfied.

You have an internal fire burning inside you. It pushes you to do more, to achieve more. After each accomplishment is reached, the fire dwindles for a moment, but very soon it rekindles itself, forcing you toward the next accomplishment. Your relentless need for achievement might not be logical. It might not even be focused, but it will always be with you. As an achiever, you must learn to live with this whisper of discontent.” Oh, I do not like hearing that.

“It does have its benefits. It brings you the energy you need to work long hours without burning out. It is a jolt you can always count on to get you started on new tasks and new challenges. It is a power supply that causes you to set the pace and define the levels of productivity for your workgroup. It is a theme that keeps you moving.”

[0:47:38.9] ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah, I heard that and it felt truth from the center of my being. I was like, “Oh.” If I don’t do something regardless, then I do not feel –

[0:47:49.4] AMY MOORE: Sorry, keep going. Keep going. Sorry about that.

[0:47:51.4] ERIN LINEHAN: Amy’s pointing at something. I need to do, achieve to feel. Yeah, what does that say?

[0:47:57.1] AMY MOORE: Okay, I did this when I was in sales. I had switched – I was a teacher for I don’t know, four or five years and then I realized, “Yeah, that’s not quite the best fit for me.” I did a 180 and went into sales and I started selling copy machines. It was awesome training. It was the best training ever. We did the strengths finder test. It was really big on how you can apply your strengths to selling basically.

[0:48:27.1] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Erin, your business, The Kali Institute, is actually focused on high achievers. I actually loved hearing that, that’s why I work with Crystal and I see her personally and do peak performance. This is something that is your specialty, so I would love to hear more about that.

[0:48:42.6] ERIN LINEHAN: Right. Crystal and I started, so we are both high achievers, and so we wanted to figure out how to work with, because I don’t think there’s enough therapy practices around high achievers. Not all the time, but a lot of the time, high achievers are great at compartmentalizing and pushing in their stuff that they’ve had. 

Often times, people that had a lot of shit happen in their life, whether that’s trauma or just difficult circumstances or whatever, and they were able to push that down, but at some point when you don’t – when you have a lot of stuff that you haven’t dealt with that’s maybe driving you forward, and so you’re running from your stuff or you’re suffering through your stuff. In order to get to the next level, you got to deal with all the things that you need to deal with, in order to propel you forward.

The whole business is set up on helping high achievers to do that. You drop into the past, and then so that you can propel yourself forward. I think that there’s a lot to – some of the things if you feel you need to deal with your stuff, right? Then you might feel stuck, or stunted, or sometimes people often complain of having somatic symptoms, but they are not explained medically.

[0:49:45.4] ANNA NEWELL JONES: What type of things?

[0:49:47.0] ERIN LINEHAN: Some people might be – they might get headaches. They might just feel a lot of tension in their body. They might have – whatever type of things; back pain even. There’s random pains in their body and they don’t necessarily – sometimes, some people think that autoimmune stuff is often linked to trauma, and so those things is stuff that we need to deal with and that’s what the whole business is about.

[0:50:10.2] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Fascinating. The Kali Institute has helped me so much.

[0:50:15.6] ERIN LINEHAN: What ways have you seen?

[0:50:17.0] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Oh, my gosh. I’ve done EMDR and Crystal helped me with that, and especially with the public speaking. There was a big fear, or desire to hide. The message to me growing up, it wasn’t articulated in this way of course, but it was I am valued and I get worth when I achieve. Don’t achieve too much, because you might make someone not feel good about themselves.

[0:50:46.2] ERIN LINEHAN: It’s a conundrum, especially with women. Yeah.

[0:50:49.4] ANNA NEWELL JONES: It’s definitely. Women are taught to always consider the feelings of other people. This is something, like the not hiding thing and showing up as who I truly am and I can serve more people and achieve more when I deal with these past issues. EMDR is when I started first learning about it, it was – it’s typically done with people who have –

[0:51:14.3] ERIN LINEHAN: PTSD and trauma stuff. There’s a whole range – that’s the thing that we saw all this research on the fact that you can do it with peak performance type of things. You were like, “Oh, we need to do that.” Yes.

[0:51:25.4] ANNA NEWELL JONES: You rewire the brain and create these new pathways. I did it specifically with public speaking. It’s owning that and showing up and dealing with some past “trauma” about why I couldn’t do that, and things that I didn’t realize. It’s been hugely transformative.

[0:51:44.9] ERIN LINEHAN: Just to be able to move through the world without – so many high-achieving people will suffer through something and they have this – that driver, this almost like a ghost that’s chasing them to have – to be able to outrun this thing. To be able to really work through that and calm that part of ourselves that’s always coming after us, like do more and be more and be enough. 

To be able to move through back to that David Brooks book, to be able to achieve and do things joyfully with your whole self, instead of having to run away from something, or outperform the shit that you don’t want to deal with. That is I think a priceless thing. That is what our whole business is about, because Crystal and I have both had to do that process. Now you have done that process and it’s just –

[0:52:34.4] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, it’s so cool.

[0:52:35.7] AMY MOORE: Well, and I think too your work that I’ve done with you around healing touch, it’s there’s a way where some of that comes into play that I’ve seen that you’ve helped me with release some old traumas, or old things from the past and then let that go. Then I don’t know, I would imagine that maybe that’s part of shedding the ghost a little bit, or at least making that ghost quieter.

[0:52:58.4] ERIN LINEHAN: Right. As a side note, healing touch is energy medicine stuff, and so it’s therapy. I can work with Amy, because she’s – that’s how it works. They weren’t a therapy. No. It’s good to clarify, because people are like, “Wait, you can work with Anna, but then you can’t work with me?” Because you can work with people – it’s a different boundary with energy medicine, as opposed to therapy. I just feel I need to clarify it. No one else knows that probably, but I feel I need to clarify that for my own self.

[0:53:27.2] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Good clarification. Yeah, highly recommend that. Get with The Kali Institute. They are amazing. Amazing. Total game changer.

[0:53:36.0] AMY MOORE: Get that ghost away from you.

[0:53:40.1] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. Okay, so we have a practical tip today and the practical tip is to pay attention to things that the question to ask yourself is what am I not wanting to pay attention to that working, or achieving is helping me to avoid? Totally a big one.

[0:54:01.3] AMY MOORE: At the beginning of the episode, we talked about that shield. What’s behind the shield?

[0:54:07.1] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. Total quick one here. Just kidding. Not another impact.

[0:54:11.8] AMY MOORE: Real light. No biggie.

[0:54:15.2] ANNA NEWELL JONES: This is a big one that’s going to take some time. What we want to do with this is do an awareness challenge and notice our challenge for just life, not necessarily the next two weeks, is notice where you’re getting your sense of worth from. That is really going to help you uncover it. If you are doing this as Brené Brown says, the hustle for worthiness, if you’re looking outside yourself, if you’re never satisfied, if you don’t have contentment with your achievements, if it’s serving you in some areas but not serving you in others, those are the things to pay attention to.

[0:54:52.5] ERIN LINEHAN: Just insatiable appetite for that.

[0:54:54.9] AMY MOORE: I think too, that, it’s always great to reach for the bigger goal, but you need to appreciate and enjoy the results too. It’s like, are you able to – yes, you can be an achiever, yes, it’s awesome, yes, there’s so much to be accomplished. Are you able to then enjoy, or appreciate what you achieve, or what the result is?

[0:55:17.6] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Are you using achieving as a way to avoid certain tougher things?

[0:55:23.0] ERIN LINEHAN: Also too, then on that note and then we’ll wrap it up. I think that enjoying the process and people always talk about that, of enjoying the process is because if we just focus on – we’re not ever arriving anywhere. When I realized that, then that helps me to alleviate something. If I’m just focused on where I’m going and I forgot like, “Oh, there’s all the space and time for the process, right?

There was an interview with Bob Bowman. He was Michael Phelps’s swim coach. He was talking about that with – they set goals that they want to win Olympic gold medals, right? That’s the goal. If they in their training just looked at the Olympic gold medal, then if you just focus non outcome, then it makes the whole process miserable. Whereas, if you can find joy in the process, then that – really enjoy being in it, it’s an entirely different thing. I think with high-achieving, one of practical tips is that to enjoy the process and not in this like, “Oh, yeah. I’m going to enjoy the process. This is great.” Really like, you’re not arriving anywhere. To realize that. Because there’s something – you reach one goal and there’s something right after it. However you learn to do that.

[0:56:36.1] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Well, and I think celebrating it and being like, “Oh, maybe I don’t buy want off of Amazon right the second. Maybe I wait to hit this goal and then buy it as a treat to myself and sit in it a little bit.” That’s something Crystal helped me learn how to do.

[0:56:51.5] ERIN LINEHAN: That’s good. That’s good.

[0:56:53.6] AMY MOORE: Good stuff. All right, ladies.

[0:56:54.8] ANNA NEWELL JONES: A lot with this episode.

[0:56:56.6] ERIN LINEHAN: There was a lot.

[0:56:57.3] AMY MOORE: We could keep going, but unfortunately our time is up. Sorry. Don’t forget. Don’t forget to go to lessalonepodcast.com to access the show notes, links and resources from this episode. Remember, use the discount code LessAlonePodcast for 20% off your first month at weeditpodcasts.com.

[0:57:21.7] ANNA NEWELL JONES: Bye.

[0:57:23.1] ERIN LINEHAN: Bye.

[0:57:24.3] AMY MOORE: Bye.


[0:57:28.2] AMY MOORE: Thanks for listening. You can find more about this episode and a way to connect to the community at lessalonepodcast.com. If you like us, don’t forget to subscribe and be sure to leave a review. It helps other people find us and could be just what they need.


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