On the show today we’re exploring what it means to be an awesome friend! We take a deep dive into the qualities of friendship and what it means to be a good person. We discuss the key ingredients to fostering better friendships. We discuss direct and sensitive communication, advice, responsibility and intuition towards good chemistry. We also talk about self awareness and taking an honest look at one’s own performance as a friend. We value encouraging and supporting others and talk about how much boundaries and consistency can help your relationships. For all this and more, be sure to listen to the episode!
Key Points From This Episode:
- An update on the bathroom lunch story we shared in Episode 1
- Some background on today’s topic and why it’s necessary
- Direct communication, safety and discomfort
- The three gates that direct communication must pass through
- Some definitions of a good friend from our social media network
- Unsolicited advice, asking questions and the responsibility of friends
- The chemistry of good friendship and intuitive feelings
- How do we know we’re being a good friend to someone?
- The importance of listening, setting oneself aside and encouraging others
- 11 tips for good conversations from Celeste Headlee
- Maintaining and keeping friendships through consistency and boundaries
- And much more!
Links to Things We Mention in the Episode:
- Less Alone Podcast
- Gretchen Rubin
- Miranda Anderson
- Live Free Creative
- Widespread Panic
- The Calm app
- Rumi quote
- M. Scott Peck
- William Ury
- (Anna’s book) The Spenders Guide to Debt-Free Living
- Celeste Headlee TED talk
- Book: Boundaries
- Broke For Free
Be sure to Rate, Review and Subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcast player!
AMY MOORE: We are three friends exploring connection. From the coffee shop to the podcast studio. I’m Amy.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I’m Anna.
ERIN LINEHAN: I’m Erin.
AMY MOORE: I’m going to start a timer here.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I have a timer.
AMY MOORE: Oh, perfect.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Anticipating your needs, Amy and Erin. Okay.
AMY MOORE: Okay. We are back. Master Voice.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Master voice. Also known as Episode Three, exactly how to be a great friend.
AMY MOORE: Or an awesome friend.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yes.
ERIN LINEHAN: That’s good.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: We just launched. We’re recording the day after we launched. That was crazy, right?
ERIN LINEHAN: It was crazy.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Everybody showed up. People are reviewing, people are liking it. Holy cow, that was crazy.
ERIN LINEHAN: Pretty amazing to see, I mean, the whole podcast is based on connection, but pretty cool to see that people are connecting in that way. I’ve never had that experience online about how that works and it’s been awesome.
AMY MOORE: Yeah, then connecting to the podcast.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for all your great feedback. I heard awesome things about Amy’s voice.
ERIN LINEHAN: Absolutely.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: The radio voice. I heard I was a little nasally.
AMY MOORE: Thank you very much. No!
ERIN LINEHAN: Really?
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. My husband said that. He’s like, “Do you have a cold?” I was like, “I’m just nasally. That’s my thing.”
ERIN LINEHAN: I don’t think you sound nasally.
AMY MOORE: I don’t either.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Well, thank you. I mean, but it wasn’t a surprise to hear that. All right, so do we want to follow up on our last to-do?
AMY MOORE: Ooh, honesty.
ERIN LINEHAN: Honesty is a big one.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, super big one. Wow. Okay, so I had a revelation with this challenge. I was actually talking to Erin on the phone and I found that I use the phrase ‘I don’t know,’ as kinda a filler word, right? We all have these filler words. It’s just something that happens. And, Erin said, “I think you do know.” I said, “I do know.” Now every time I’ll catch myself saying ‘I don’t know’, and then I say “I do. I actually do know.”
ERIN LINEHAN: You do know.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. If I am honest with myself, I do know. So, that was probably my biggest revelation. Then I saw this meme on Instagram. I told you two about it yesterday at coffee, but this idea of the power of the word ‘and’. So, like I can be a tomboy and I can be girly. I can pay off my debt and I can struggle with spending more than I should.
These two things that seem contradictory, can coexist. Just being honest, I think it’s really easy to be honest with other people of like, “I’m doing great. I’m doing fine.” But it’s like, am I really doing okay? When I check in with myself and just owning that maybe things aren’t super great and being okay with it being like, “Okay, one moment,” and not okay the next moment.
How’d it go for you two?
AMY MOORE: Well, I think for me this week, that’s exactly the last couple weeks for me. Things are blowing up in my personal life. I think that there’s just no – I can’t not be honest right now. I’m finding the people that I can be really safe with and honest with. And, just what a gift, really it is not – people are like, “How are you doing today?” I found myself just saying, that is a really hard question to answer right now. I think even just being able to be honest with that and give myself space, not to just be like, “I’m good.” No, I’m actually not.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: It’s like, I don’t know what these feelings are. I can’t articulate this right now. You are actually really good at articulating and I feel —
AMY MOORE: Well, thank you. I mean, it doesn’t always happen, but then you’re in these situations I think where it’s like, I mean, I am forced to. I got to be present and real, and so the honesty challenge was – it was a good time, I guess.
ERIN LINEHAN: You could fold though and not show up. You are showing up that just whatever it feels like, the ability to just be there and show up, that’s a big deal. Yeah. Should pat yourself on the back.
AMY MOORE: Thank you.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: How did you do, Erin?
ERIN LINEHAN: Been taking a good hard look about the parts that I’m ready to own up to in a more, just like, open way, because I really admire people when they can just show up in their full truth and that they’re not throwing their stuff around there. It’s not like, throwing around vulnerability just to be. It’s just like, “No this is just who I am.”
When I come across people that just stand in their truth, it is super powerful. Every time I’m like, “Oh, I need to do that.” Not that I’m inauthentic in the world. There are just parts of me that I don’t necessarily love, or yeah, parts of me that are just harder to friend; just taking a deeper look at what those parts of me.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: That’s so cool. Well and that’s interesting, because I’ve heard of this idea of a performance vulnerability. It makes me think of what you just said about like, “Oh, just being vulnerable, just for the sake of being vulnerable.” Do you know what I mean?
ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Not really being in it, or truthful about it, but just like, “Oh, I’m being so vulnerable.” Do you know what I’m saying?
ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah, yeah. I’m with you. I mean, showing up on this – I mean, even this podcast has had me take a deeper look at holy, that’s just –
AMY MOORE: Oh, hell yeah.
ERIN LINEHAN: Oh, I don’t know who’s going to be listening to it. I don’t know what’s going to be happening, but I’m just going to show up.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Here we go. Yeah.
ERIN LINEHAN: Then afterwards, I think in the last two recordings, I’ve had a vulnerability hangover because like, “Uh.” Oh, man. It’s a lot. It also feels very good to be able to have these real conversations, because I don’t know that we’re not holding back much.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: No.
ERIN LINEHAN: This is like, we’re being real, then it’s a practice of being honest, right?
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. It’s scary to do this podcasts and be like, “Oh, my gosh. In the past, I’ve been able to be very controlled about what I put out there, like my book, my social media stuff. It’s like, okay, I’m protecting what I’m sharing and there’s a certain safety in that.
Then sitting here with two people I’m very close with and having real conversations, it’s like I’m sharing things that I normally wouldn’t share with people I just meet on a plane, or out and about or whatever. It’s a different kind of vulnerability. I think it’s been really good too, because it’s made me own the idea of either don’t do it, or be okay with what you’ve done.
ERIN LINEHAN: Yes. That’s good. That’s really good.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I’m sure I did not make that up.
ERIN LINEHAN: Right. It’s a good thought.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I just made that up. Aren’t I amazing?
AMY MOORE: Genius. Really brilliant.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: It’s like, either own it or don’t do it. That’s a whole different level of honesty of like, if I don’t want anyone to know about what I’m doing and like, oh, there was this quote I saw, Gretchen Rubin. “It was like pay attention to anything you try to hide.”
ERIN LINEHAN: I saw that. I was like, “Oh.” It’s right in there.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. It reminded me of a coffee meeting – coffee we had and I was like, okay, there are two things I have to tell you two.
AMY MOORE: Oh, I remember this.
ERIN LINEHAN: I remember this too.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I’m sure you do. I was like, “I don’t feel I want to tell you these things,” but –
AMY MOORE: Then you did.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I know I need to tell you, because I’m trying to hide it. Recognizing that holy cow, I don’t want to share this because it might put me in a weird spot, or I have to talk about something I don’t want to talk –
ERIN LINEHAN: I just remember. That was hilarious. Also, not appropriate to share in public, but really, really funny.
AMY MOORE: Yeah
ANNA NEWELL JONES: And there’s that.
AMY MOORE: Good for you for recognizing it and then actually doing something about it.
ERIN LINEHAN: Being honest about it, because when we sit on those things and they eat us alive I feel like. When we don’t share them..
ANNA NEWELL JONES: There’s also a saying the – what is it? It’s something like the – something’s in the secret. The struggle, no. The power and the secret. I’m totally butchering this.
AMY MOORE: I don’t know.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: There’s something – I’ll remember it.
AMY MOORE: It would come back to you.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I’ll remember it.
AMY MOORE: Sickness in the secret, maybe?
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Family sickness, or family dysfunction. The sickness is in those secrets so when you can own those secrets or not hide anymore, there’s so much power in that honesty of saying, “I’m going to face it in the safety of a safe space, not just like, blah.” I don’t think that there’s any benefit to that. It has to be safe.
ERIN LINEHAN: Just throwing your stuff out there. You’re icky and gross.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: That’s not good and that’s not productive. To be able to show up and be honest. Yeah, honesty, big one. That was a good.
ERIN LINEHAN: That was a big one.
AMY MOORE: Big takeaway.
ERIN LINEHAN: I’m curious if any of our listeners practiced honesty and how did that show up for you. We would love to hear that, because the more that we can engage with you, then the more that we get out of this.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. We want to get to know you. These challenges are not just for us to be like, “Hey, let’s see how good we are in challenges.” We’re all very good at challenges, we know this. These are things that we have found that help us, and so we want to know how it’s working for you and tell us if you did the honesty challenge. We heard a lot in the reviews, thank you all so much for the reviews.
ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah, that was awesome.
AMY MOORE: That was really cool.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: We loved hearing your reviews. We’re going to highlight just a couple of them today, because they were so fun to read. It’s just nice knowing that we’re not talking into an abyss.
ERIN LINEHAN: Also too as I talked to Anna, our phone time has significantly jumped since we started this podcast.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Our whole friendship, we’ve done a big level of jumping on our friendship.
ERIN LINEHAN: I called Anna today and I was talking about how excited I was about –
ANNA NEWELL JONES: She’s got me on speed dial now.
ERIN LINEHAN: You’re both on my favorites.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I’ve talked more on the phone in the last month or two? Than ever.
ERIN LINEHAN: In the car. I was like, “Call you in the car.”
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. I’m like, “Hey, what’s up? Erin, what’s up?”
ERIN LINEHAN: Yes. When I called you today and I was talking about how I’m not a –
ANNA NEWELL JONES: At 7:30 in the morning?
ERIN LINEHAN: Yes, of course. That I don’t always love social media, because it sometimes overwhelms me. Then I was looking at –
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I think it overwhelms a lot of people.
ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah. I was looking at the podcast group and then the podcast page and I was super stoked, because people were showing up and commenting. It was awesome to know who is out there and people that I haven’t talked to in a really long time. It was super cool. That engagement is awesome.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. We are reading your comments. We are responding. We sent out a ton of Starbucks cards. Oh, my gosh. You guys have been just so amazing and we’re just so excited to get to know you and have these conversations with you.
Erin is pointing at me. Okay, we have an update. I have to share this update from Episode One, because –
AMY MOORE: Oh, going way back.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Way back. Here we are in Episode Three doing a throwback of Episode One. If you haven’t listened to Episode One, go back and listen to it. There’s a pretty sad story I share about eating lunch in the bathroom.
My sister, I don’t think I’ve told you this Amy. My sister came out to visit with a friend of hers and I was telling her about this podcast and what we’re doing and I was like, “Yeah, so this thing came up about how I was –
ERIN LINEHAN: Your twin sister.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: My twin sister, yes. “About how I ate lunch in the bathroom by myself. We were wondering what you did during that time.” She told me, she said, “I ate lunch in the bathroom by myself too.”
AMY MOORE: No way.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I was like, “That’s so sad. Sorry.”
AMY MOORE: That is so sad.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I was like, “That’s hilarious.” Just two identical twins eating separately in the bathroom. I was like, “Oh, man.”
ERIN LINEHAN: The janitor goes in and says, “Anna, Sister.”
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Why are all these people that look alike in the bathroom eating? Oh, but it was so funny. I have to remember to share that, because it was hilarious.
AMY MOORE: That’s pretty good.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. Also I want to do a quick shout out to Miranda Anderson . She’s actually got a book coming up soon. Actually it launches this month. It’s released this month. It’s called More Than Enough. She helped us so much with our launch and the giveaway for the Starbucks card.
AMY MOORE: Oh, good. Thanks Miranda.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. When she launched her podcast Live Free Creative, I saw how she did her giveaway and it encouraged reviews and helped the podcast be found. I was like, “That is so good. If I ever launch a podcast, I need to ask her. I need to remember how she’s doing this.”
Then I went back, I couldn’t find all the details about it, so I sent her a quick message and she was so wonderful with how she shared that knowledge, with how it worked and what worked and what didn’t work. Anyway, I just want to give her a big thank you.
ERIN LINEHAN: Thank you, Miranda.
AMY MOORE: Thank you.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: For helping us out with that. We appreciate your friendship.
AMY MOORE: Yes. Appreciate that guidance.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Okay, so the reviews are super fun. Let’s go ahead and do two reviews. One is by – should we say last names? I’m not sure. Let’s do a last initial, just if I have it. Okay, so Christine S. has said – she gave us a five-star review. Thank you. She said, ”The podcast I didn’t know I needed.”
Actually Amy, how about you read this? Because –
ERIN LINEHAN: The podcast voice.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: You have the awesomest voice.
AMY MOORE: All right, let’s see here. This is oh, Christine S. You already said that. All right, titled, ‘The podcast I didn’t know I needed.’ “Thank you for making this podcast. I’m learning tons that I can actually apply to my life and it’s motivating me to make some changes, or at least realize where I could make some changes. I hope there’s a place to check out all the articles and books you reference in the pod. Keep up the good cause, ladies.”
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Awesome. You can find all the references in the show notes for the episode lessalonepodcast.com.
AMY MOORE: Great. Then the other one is from Donna M. The subject says, ‘Hey, nice to meet you.’ All right, she says, “I enjoy this podcast for several reasons. The hosts were honest and real. They shared real-life experiences. One thing that was brought up that was a good reminder was to ask questions of the other person to get to know them. When I’m feeling awkward, this is a good thing to do, have a series of questions to ask.”
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Thanks, Donna.
ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah, Donna.
AMY MOORE: Glad you found the takeaway helpful. Yeah, that’s so great.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: We’ll try to feature some different reviews, so be sure to leave your reviews on Apple Podcasts. It helps so much. Okay, so should we get into this?
ERIN LINEHAN: We get into it.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Let’s do it. How to be an awesome friend?
AMY MOORE: Erin.
ERIN LINEHAN: Yes.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Okay, so first of all, I have to say we were talking about – this would be a natural next episode, for after the last two. It’s funny, because I was like, “I think we need to do an episode on how to be a good friend.” Erin’s like, “I don’t think we need that,” right?
ERIN LINEHAN: True.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. I was like, “I don’t know. I don’t think it’s a basic – I feel it’s something I have to read articles about how to do and this is a little embarrassing.”
AMY MOORE: Or maybe write to Dear Abby.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yes. Yes. Nice throwback to Episode One there. Yeah, so it’s not something that I find comes naturally to me. It was interesting having this conversation of like, is this valid information? Is this something people even want to know about? Maybe it’s intuitive? I don’t know. What are your thoughts on that?
ERIN LINEHAN: A little bit about my history. I’m the youngest of five, and so my sister that is closest in age to me is six years older than me. When I was almost three, my dad died and then things were crazy in our house. Since I was so little and you’re little, you need – I mean, you need adults in your life to help, right? Everyone’s pretty distracted.
For me, making friends was it felt almost a survival thing. That’s how I had to get my needs met. I have been having to do that for a really long time and reaching out to people, so that I had connection. Since I’ve been having to do it for a really long time, it wasn’t necessarily – it just feels like I had that skill. Yeah, and so that’s why I feel it’s – I think that people just know that, but I only know that, not that I’ve done it perfectly by any means, that’s for sure.
AMY MOORE: Who has? Oh, my God.
ERIN LINEHAN: Right. I feel it comes more naturally. There was a period within the last several years where a situation came up and I was new to a group of people and it was a first time that I was like, “Oh, this is why it’s hard to make friends.” It was good for me to feel that, because I hadn’t necessarily felt that before. Because when I was younger, I was very, very outgoing and well, a little bit crazy and all over the place. Then –
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Same. Same.
ERIN LINEHAN: I was involved in sports and whatever. There was just people around all the time. Then as I get older, I don’t necessarily want to be out there so much. That’s what I thought. I don’t know if that helps.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. What do you think, Amy? Does it come naturally? Is this something people even need to know about how to do, how to be a good friend?
AMY MOORE: I don’t know. I mean, it’s definitely something that I guess, just my own experience would be having a lot of family friends – just growing up with friends around and the importance of friends, that was just – that felt natural to me as a kid. There’s a part of me that just loves talking to people and socializing and all of that.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Says the extrovert.
AMY MOORE: Yeah.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: The two extroverts.
ERIN LINEHAN: I’m moving more center of it at all.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Same with me –
AMY MOORE: That’s what Myers-Briggs says, that I am half and half right now.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: It’s interesting. As I’ve been working on being honest, more honest and having the courage to do that, I feel I’m becoming more extroverted.
AMY MOORE: Yeah.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Isn’t that crazy?
AMY MOORE: I think there is something –I might be pulling this out thin air, but I do think there’s something about as you get older, you do go to the middle.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: We like made up statistics. We’ll take them. Just kidding. Facts.
AMY MOORE: We’ll see about that one.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: We’ll google that. Yeah. Yeah, I can see that for sure.
ERIN LINEHAN: I think that is true that people go center.
AMY MOORE: Yeah, I think so too. As far as making friends go, I mean, I think it’s something that I think about a lot -just even being a person, like what kind of friend do I want to be, what friend am I being? Am I owning up to my part in this relationship? Am I giving too much? Am I taking too much? The whole balance of it all, I think is something that I know I personally think about. I mean, I definitely am far from being a perfect friend and have had –
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I think you’re a great friend. Coming from a friend, you get a five-star review, Amy.
AMY MOORE: Hey, thanks. Maybe I’ve come a long way, because let me tell you.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: You too, Erin. Five stars.
ERN LINEHAN: You too, Anna. She picks up the phone when I call.
AMY MOORE: I’ve definitely had friendships not work out. There have been some casualties in my past. I think about that stuff though and just where I am today, I think that yeah, just what I said. I guess there’s no real reason to repeat it. I just think about the balance, or how am I showing up as a friend. Is it working? Am I happy with what – how I am? How I being.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: At the end of the day, am I proud about my actions? I did want to clarify that we are framing this as how to be a good friend, but I really think this is all about how to be a good person in relationships, in general. These first three episodes, the obvious thing with connection is about friends. At least that’s where we’re coming at it from to do the foundation, but we know that this is about relationships in general, not just friendships. In our later episodes, we’re going to explore different kinds of connections to non-friendship things. How to be a friend. How to be a good friend.
ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah, I was thinking about how to be a good friend. I jotted some things down, so I’m curious about what you all think about that. For me, someone who shows up for the good and also the bad, that can hold space whenever I’m not in a great space; someone who holds me accountable and calls me out on my stuff, in a loving way.
Normally, when that happens I initially get pissed at the person like, “Uh.” Then I come back and I’m like, “Right. Okay, you’re right.” That’s how that goes, and so that’s super important to me. If I can laugh with them is super, super important. If I feel safe enough to be vulnerable, generally, that also means that the person is listening to me and listening, we’ll talk about later in this episode is super important. I think not a lot of people do that, that well. If you’re a good hugger –
AMY MOORE: Oh, that’s a big one for you.
ERIN LINEHAN: Heart to heart with the knees.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: With the knees.
ERIN LINEHAN: That’s right. Maybe we’ll show that on Instagram with a knee full body hug and maybe a sandwich hug. Yes?
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yes. We have some specialty hugs going on in this room.
ERIN LINEHAN: Well, I’ll tell you the story. I don’t know if I remember I told you this.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: These are next-level premium hugging happening.
ERIN LINEHAN: I went to a music festival in Vegas. Did I tell you all the story?
ANNA NEWELL JONES: No.
ERIN LINEHAN: Okay. I went to a music festival in Vegas a long time ago and I made a costume, because it was at Halloween. I’ve only been to Vegas once on the strip, right? I went to this music festival and I dressed up as a sandwich with my friend. I put a piece of bread, so 3-inch foam and then I took a glue gun and I put different colors of felt. I had a piece of bread on my back like a sandwich. I probably have this picture on Instagram. Then I was the cheese and the bacon.
AMY MOORE: A cheese and bacon sandwich.
ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah. Hold on. Then my friend was the other half of the sandwich.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Does that sound good or not?
AMY MOORE: No.
ERIN LINEHAN: Hold up. Wait. Hold up. I’m a cheese and bacon and then my friend was lettuce and tomato. We walked around Vegas.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: BLT with cheese?
ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah.
AMY MOORE: BLT with cheese.
ERIN LINEHAN: Sounds pretty good now, huh?
AMY MOORE: I don’t know. I’ve heard BLT with peanut butter.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Okay. All right.
AMY MOORE: Derail.
ERIN LINEHAN: We walked around Vegas and we gave hugs like, “Hey, what do you have for lunch?” Then we gave people Vegas sandwich hugs.
AMY MOORE: Oh, my. That’s right.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: This was your favorite time in Vegas. You went big.
ERIN LINEHAN: Now big go home. Then so we went to this music festival and then we won third place, because of our vibe.
AMY MOORE: Wait, did anyone recoil?
ERIN LINEHAN: I don’t know if I remember that.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Okay. Fair. That’s amazing.
ERIN LINEHAN: See before a Widespread Panic. Hello.
AMY MOORE: Oh, that’s amazing. It’s so great.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Awesome. Yeah, we need to see a picture of this.
ERIN LINEHAN: If you are a good hugger, right?
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, very important. Oh, wait. About hugging.
ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah, go ahead.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: You do the heart-to-heart hug.
AMY MOORE: Anna and I, we have learned that from Erin.
ERIN LINEHAN: Talk about it. Talk about it.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. It’s a rather than going you normally would go of right shoulder to right shoulder.
AMY MOORE: Yeah, right shoulder to right shoulder. You do left shoulder to right –
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Left shoulder –
ERIN LINEHAN: Left to left.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: We’re all coming off the microphone. Left to left. Yeah, then your hearts connect. That’s so sweet.
AMY MOORE: It’s so sweet.
ERIN LINEHAN: It’s so sweet.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Erin, started us on that.
AMY MOORE: Where did you learn the heart to heart?
ERIN LINEHAN: Some ‘healing touch’ thing. They’re all into the heart to heart things.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: It’s great. Amy, I’m like, come on, redo, redo heart to heart.
ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah, this isn’t everything. Every time, no, heart to heart. She learned.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I’m paying attention to Erin. The other day on one of our mini phone calls. I said, “How are you taking care of yourself?”
ERIN LINEHAN: Tell me more and I was like, “Anna.”
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. I was like, I even wrote down these tips I learned. Tell me more. What are you doing to take care of yourself?
AMY MOORE: You are a really good student, Anna.
ERIN LINEHAN: Excellent. Excellent.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I’m taking notes, Erin. Erin, the therapist I’m like, “What am I learning?” No, but actually this is a really good point about how to be a good friend. I don’t want to interrupt your list, but I feel I’ve learned how to be a good friend by being friends with people who are good friends.
AMY MOORE: Absolutely. Everything about that today.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I want to hear the rest of your list.
ERIN LINEHAN: Okay. There’s one more point. That is that communicating well and generally are direct people. It gives me a ton of anxiety if I don’t know where I stand with people that are in my circle. An example of that is that if I reach out to someone, so I text message or I call them and they don’t have time to talk to me, then all they need to do is say, “I don’t have time to talk to you.”
If that person doesn’t want to talk to me and they say, and they just ghost me, or they just don’t say anything, it makes my anxiety go crazy because I’m waiting for them to reach back out. Direct communication is – and communicating whatever that is, because – or if someone was like, “Hey, I don’t want to hang out with you anymore.” That doesn’t feel very good, right?
AMY MOORE: At least you know.
ERIN LINEHAN: At least you know and now you can move on. When it’s like, the people get so awkward around communicating hard things that sometimes they just don’t and I think that’s painful. I think it’s more painful than being direct.
AMY MOORE: How hard is that to be direct?
ERIN LINEHAN: You’re good at it. They’re good at it. You’re good at it
AMY MOORE: It’s hard.
ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah, I know it’s hard.
AMY MOORE: I mean, I feel like it doesn’t come overnight.
ERIN LINEHAN: I agree. I agree
AMY MOORE: I think it’s something that’s really – I value it as well. I think that I try to do it. Of course, there are people in my life that I feel way more comfortable being direct with than others.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: You have to know that you can be direct and the relationship will not be doomed by you –
AMY MOORE: Or wounded or something. Or you can come back from it.
ERIN LINEHAN: I remember when we, Amy, when I first met you and you were talking – I was asking you some question that was super vulnerable to me and I crossed my legs and my arms and you were like –
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Was this that coffee?
AMY MOORE: I think I called you out on that.
ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah. She was like, “Well, just look at yourself right now.” I was like, “Uh.” I was like, “Okay, you’re right.” That’s what started it off. Started it off. Yeah.
AMY MOORE: I’m glad you didn’t slap me or something.
ERIN LINEHAN: No, that’s for later. I’m just kidding.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. Some relationships aren’t – it’s not safe enough to be direct. I’m thinking of a couple people and it’s like, “Oh, my gosh.” It would be just this horribly huge ordeal. Actually, I’ve been hearing some feedback lately that I’m, oh, direct. I was like, “That’s great, because then you know where I stand, right?”
AMY MOORE: Yes.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I think it’s wonderful. As I’ve gotten older and have become healthier myself, I’m like, “Just tell me where you stand with these things,” then we’re not guessing. I’m a terrible guesser at how things are going.
ERIN LINEHAN: You mean, you’re not a mind reader?
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Not a mind reader.
AMY MOORE: I talk to my kids about that all the time.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: It’s like, just tell me where you’re at and we can do something about it.
AMY MOORE: Direct can be so painful too. I think it’s the delivery in directness.
ERIN LINEHAN: Absolutely. No, it’s like –
AMY MOORE: Yeah, be direct. Yes, please. Then also, be kind, or be respectful or gentle.
ERIN LINEHAN: It doesn’t mean that you can be a dick. Being direct is not – if you are lovingly and your intention behind it – episode is now explicit, so there is that.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: We can maybe bleep it.
ERIN LINEHAN: It’s not a green card to say whatever.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Actually, that’s a really good point.
AMY MOORE: It is a good point. Yeah. Super good point.
ERIN LINEHAN: I’m looking up this thing I did, I use the Calm app every morning, and so I’m going to look up this thing that was on there about that. You can talk.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I feel like people think that if, “Oh, I’m going to be direct, it means brutally honest,” which is that is not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about being – I guess, it’s synonymous with being assertive. It’s like, here is what – and assertive is not aggressive, to me.
AMY MOORE: Good distinction.
ERIN LINEHAN: You can be kind and you can deliver things.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. It’s like, do it in a kind way. I also think too, the delivery you said is so, so, so important of – if people – maybe this doesn’t make sense. I was going to say, it doesn’t really work if people don’t know you, but the delivery of just a kind, loving way about it.
ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah. I mean, I think that I have gone shopping by myself and there’s some random woman in the dressing room like, “Hey, what’s this look like?” If that person’s like, “Yeah, no.”
AMY MOORE: Oh, I do that all the time. “I love that.”
ERIN LINEHAN: Then it’s super. Then you appreciate it.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: You ask people?
AMY MOORE: Oh, yes. I ask total strangers, because what do they have to lose and what do I have to lose? Just tell me, does this look weird?
ERIN LINEHAN: Here’s the thing, so this is what I love about the directness. Before you speak, let your words pass through three gates. Is it true? Is it necessary? And is it kind?
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Oh, that’s good.
ERIN LINEHAN: That quote is by Rumi. I think that it does not give people permission
AMY MOORE: to be a jerk.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: No. No D-bags allowed. Thanks.
AMY MOORE: That’s great. That’s a good one.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, that is very, very good.
AMY MOORE: Actually, can you repeat that one more time, because that might be a good thing for our takeaway.
ERIN LINEHAN: Before you speak, let your words pass through three gates. Is it true? Is it necessary? And is it kind?
AMY MOORE: That’s good. True, necessary and kind.
ERIN LINEHAN: Right. That is honest and it lands like, “Oh, right.”
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Let’s see, so we asked on our all of our social media what does it mean to be a good friend? I wanted to share a few things that you all shared with us, because they were so good, because you’re freaking smart. Is freaking a curse word?
ERIN LINEHAN: I don’t think so.
AMY MOORE: I don’t know.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I don’t think so.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: To my mom it is. Just kidding.
ERIN LINEHAN: No, you’re not.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I love you mom, if you ever – if you listen. Hopefully you’re listening. Okay. @frugalandfree says that, “To be a good friend, someone who you can be unfiltered and 100% honest with and know they won’t judge you.”
AMY MOORE: That’s a good one.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: @sarah.phillyawarnet says, “One that doesn’t give unsolicited advice.” I think that’s so good one. Good one, Sarah. I’ve started doing this thing in the past –
AMY MOORE: That is huge.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I don’t know how long. Doesn’t really matter. I just have been saying like, do you want my advice? Everybody always says yes. I think, curiosity gets them. I’ve never had anyone say no. I realized that earlier. That I think just helps.
AMY MOORE: If you ask for it, or if you ask someone, then that person knows you have an opinion, or you’re thinking something. It’s hard to be like, “Yeah, no.”
ERIN LINEHAN: I’ve had someone say that to me.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Really?
AMY MOORE: No, they don’t want to know?
ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah. I was like, “Okay.” Can I ask you a question? That’s what I often ask. Yeah. Then they’ll say no. I’m like, “Oh.” It’s only happened once, but it was like, okay.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I guess I frame it as like, “Can I tell you what I think?” Then I think it’s also in talking about how to be a good friend with advice, I think it’s important to not be tied to the person you’re giving the advice to once they say they’re okay accepting it, or hearing it that you can’t be tied to the outcome.
It’s like, I have heard so many people say,like, “I gave them advice,” or they ask for advice and then they didn’t take it. It’s like, “No. No, no, no, no, no.” It’s not about taking the advice. You give them advice and I think of it as take it that under advisement, whatever. Do what you want with it. I do not care if you take it or not. It’s your life.
ERIN LINEHAN: It also takes people so long to change, often. If you tell someone something and then someone else something and then they hear a podcast about it, or they read a book about it, then at some point, they’re ready to change, if they do change. It’s not like, taking on responsibility for someone else’s change is never a good idea.
AMY MOORE: Right. Or saving a relationship, or thinking someone can swoop in and do that, or people could swoop in and do that. Or saving someone from some perspective they might have. It’s like, “I don’t really think that’s going to work.”
ERIN LINEHAN: Because generally, people come — want to heal. Whatever that looks like for them and whenever they are ready to do that, people generally go in the direction of health. If they do not go in that direction, it’s because whatever they’re dealing with is too painful that they can’t face in that moment, and so to remember that, I think.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, that’s really good.
AMY MOORE: Anything else says? Do we have any other?
ANNA NEWELL JONES: These are from our Instagram, Less Alone Podcast. @missshedidthat79 she says, “When you can tell them things without judgement, but you get honest truth when needed.”
@tiny83 says, “Someone I can lose touch with for a bit and pick up where we left off. No judgement.”
@cbnit says, “Someone who shows up. Someone who listens when you need to talk.”
I asked my sister, she’s a really good listener and friend sister. I was like, “What makes a good friend to you?” She said, “Someone you can have fun with,” and her name is Christine and she said, “Someone that remembers the stuff you tell them, so that you don’t have to like —”
AMY MOORE: That’s a good one. Yes.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Start over every time.
AMY MOORE: Good one, Christine.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. She also said, someone who accepts a certain degree of flakiness. I really appreciated that. As someone who run perpetually five minutes late. I’m like, “This has nothing to do with you. I’m terrible at planning my time apparently.”
I appreciated that. She’s got a newborn or semi-newborn. She’s like, “It’s just helpful when they won’t take offense at me just like flaking out.” She also said that “you’re allowed to make mistakes with them.” I thought that was a really good one, so you don’t have to be this perfect person and you can make mistakes and the relationship can survive.
She also said being fun and silly together. I thought that was really good. Also on that “fun and silly thing”, I was thinking back about, I believe it was Episode One, where we talked about the levels of friendship, was that – or was that Episode Two? We need to check.
ERIN LINEHAN: Two.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Okay. Episode Two was about the deepness of friendships and how some people don’t do surface level. I was talking about a certain group text I’m in, it’s all literally super, super silly stuff and that’s just how our friendship is. That works. That’s totally fine. Anyway, I just had to throw that little sidebar in of that all relationships don’t have to be super deep for them. This is a good, fun thing.
AMY MOORE: How do you know when someone else is being a good friend to you?
ERIN LINEHAN: I think that for me, I just energetically and intuitively know. It feels right –
AMY MOORE: It’s like chemistry, right?
ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah.
AMY MOORE: Yeah, I agree with that. There’s a note here about social media. Is that –
ANNA NEWELL JONES: It’ s reciprocal.
ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I feel that’s the big thing that I kept coming back to when I was thinking about this. It’s a give and take and you don’t feel – you’re giving too –
AMY MOORE: One sided relationships don’t work.
ERIN LINEHAN: No, they do not work.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. I feel reciprocal. That’s yeah,
AMY MOORE: A good word for it. All right, so how do you are being a good friend to someone?
ERIN LINEHAN: The question I ask myself is am I showing up the way that the person needs me to show up? The way that I want someone to show up for me to be a good friend, may or may not be what the person that I’m showing up prefers. Then how do we know how a person wants you to show up? You just ask.
AMY MOORE: Yeah. I think there’s such a value and again, that honesty, directness and never assuming that you know what someone else needs, especially in a friend or in a friendship. It takes a lot, I think for someone to ask. I think it opens the door if you’re on the other side and you’re asking them how can I help you? What can I do?
ERIN LINEHAN: I think sometimes though, the only caveat I would add to that that I didn’t add was when people are in times of crisis, if someone, whatever the thing is sometimes people do not have any idea what they need. Then to just do something whatever that is, or make food, or walk a dog, or whatever the thing is, because to just show up for that person, because that’s what that means. I think to remember that as well. If the person is like, “I have no idea,” you take that then you just do whatever. Does that make sense, two of you?
AMY MOORE: Yes, yes. Totally.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Also, I think saying, “I don’t know what you need right now and I can listen. I’ll be here. I don’t know what the heck to do either in this.”
AMY MOORE: Which is a great segue, because our next topic is all about listening.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yes, listening.
AMY MOORE: I think that listening, let’s see here, there’s a there’s a quote we have. It says, “Since true listening involves a setting aside of the self, it also temporarily involves a total acceptance of the others. Sensing this acceptance, the speaker will feel less and less vulnerable and more and more inclined to open up the inner recesses of his or her mind to the listener. As this happens, the speaker and the listener begin to appreciate each other more and more.” That is M. Scott Peck
ERIN LINEHAN: How good is that?
AMY MOORE: It’s good. That is a dense little nugget.
ERIN LINEHAN: That is a dense nugget.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: That is a dense nugget. We like dense nuggets. Densey nuggets. Dense nuggets. We love you.
ERIN LINEHAN: Listening, what do you think about listening?
AMY MOORE: When I was in high school, I was a peer counselor.
ERIN LINEHAN: Oh, of course you were.
AMY MOORE: We were trained –
ERIN LINEHAN: Me too.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Were you?
AMY MOORE: Yeah.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I was not.
AMY MOORE: It was a for all of high school 10, 11, 12, it was a commitment that we did peer counselor trainings, we did all kinds of things and we were trained on active listening. How do you become an active listener? What does that look like? How do you basically be quiet and really hear someone and also encourage them to keep talking. It was such a great training. I loved that role in high school. I think the training was really beneficial for my whole life. It helps me with my kids –
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Life skills.
AMY MOORE: I know, like you would think that should not be just for peer counselors, right? That should be –
ERIN LINEHAN: They should have that for everybody.
AMY MOORE: Yes, it should be part of social studies or something. I don’t know.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. Yeah.
ERIN LINEHAN: Active listening and emotional regulation, those are two classes I would add.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I want to say about active listening, after we listened to the first draft of our first episode, Amy says, I think we’re doing a lot of active listening to each other. It’s like, “Yes, we are.”
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Verbal active listening. I hear you. That’s right. We’re strong with the mm-hmm. Yes.
AMY MOORE: Yeah, it’s important though. It does build that basic connection. If you’re engaged in a conversation and you’re really hearing someone and you are showing that to them verbally, or just by your physical head nods, or your body language, or whatever.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: As I’m nodding at you.
AMY MOORE: Yes, it’s really important, because otherwise you’re talking to a brick wall.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Well and you can see the glaze, the eyes glaze over.
ERIN LINEHAN: Or someone jumping in their seat and they’re listening and they’re not really listening to you, but they’re thinking about how they’re going to respond.
AMY MOORE: Oh, that’s your favorite thing, right?
ANNA NEWELL JONES: You love that. Yeah.
ERIN LINEHAN: Absolutely.
AMY MOORE: You love that.
ERIN LINEHAN: Yes.
AMY MOORE: Say more about that.
ERIN LINEHAN: Say more about that?
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Look at you. Someone else is taking notes, I see. We got notepads over here. What questions do I ask?
ERIN LINEHAN: I mean, so it feels – it just feels bad, because you know that it’s happening and then you’re like, you didn’t hear anything I just said. You know when the person stopped listening and then they’re just waiting. The example when I was researching with this, they were talking about when they do interviews, any sort of interviews and then the host asks the person talks for a while and then the host asks them random question. Four minutes later, that doesn’t relate to anything and it’s like, well he was thinking exactly what he was going to ask, so he sounded brilliant. I mean, we all do that in some capacity, but I just don’t think that it’s very respectful in a conversation. It’s hurtful.
AMY MOORE: Yeah.
ERIN LINEHAN: Because it’s not only –
AMY MOORE: Well, because it’s selfish.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: It’s like, the idea is – I literally don’t care what you’re saying. I’m only thinking about what I’m going to say.
AMY MOORE: What I think. I’m not listening to your perspective truly.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: It’s like, how can you really take their opinion in and their thoughts in. Yeah.
ERIN LINEHAN: Because I don’t care if anyone – people often have issues around politics, right? Wherever people stand, whatever they believe in, right? I have my own beliefs, but if I really can ask you to see where you’re coming from and to hear why it is that you believe the way you do, then that is what is interesting to me. It feels like – I had brunch with a friend a couple years ago and we were talking about a very opposing viewpoint that’s pretty controversial. I was on one side and she was on the other.
I was asking her questions just like, “Well, why do you think this and why do you think that?” She was asking me the same thing. Afterwards, even though we had completely opposing viewpoints, we were like, “That was the best conversation we have had in a really long time about something that’s super difficult.” It feels good. Even you don’t have to agree. It’s just good.”
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Well, it’s because you felt heard and validated. This is –
AMY MOORE: You had room. I think if you’re emotionally charged going into any conversation and then you’re unable to – I mean, it’s hard to hear people if you’re too emotionally charged. To be in that place where you’re like, “Okay, I’m going to have room for you and your opinion and your point of view and I’m going to try to deliver my opinion and my point of view in a way that’s not.”
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Stand in it and be okay with it.
AMY MOORE: Not go straight to argument, or be combative or whatever, right?
ERIN LINEHAN: This quote on here that says, “Listen not to change someone else’s mind, listen to understand.” The quote from William Ury was, “How can we change someone else’s mine when we don’t know what their mind is?” I was like, “Oh, that is good.”
AMY MOORE: That is good.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: William. What’s up?
ERIN LINEHAN: That’s right. There’s a huge to –
AMY MOORE: It is interesting to me how so many of these things are cyclical. In our first podcast talking about asking those questions and then it’s like, well listening – the questions and really, it’s – and then you can’t be a mind reader. You have to ask someone where they’re at. You can’t make assumptions about people and where they’re coming from.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Gosh, this is all really coming together really well. It’s like, we know what we’re doing or something. This is purely accidental. I mean, not. I mean, we did this on purpose.
AMY MOORE: It’s true.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Can I say something really quick about the listening thing? I gave myself a challenge, all about the challenges over here in this corner of the world. It was to try to be really good at listening and be really present. My goal was to get people to feel they were the only person in the room.
ERIN LINEHAN: That is a superpower.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. This was something, I was like, I want to actively work on this. That week that I worked on it, I had multiple people say and I took this as the highest compliment, they said, “I don’t know why I’m telling you this.”
AMY MOORE: Yes, I love that.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: “I’ve never shared this with anyone before,” and I was like, “Oh, I must be listening very, very well.”
AMY MOORE: Yes. Yes.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I’m so proud of myself. The way that I prepped in my head for that is I said, I just was like, what my higher power, like let me just be present for delivering whatever message I need to today and not make it about me.
It’s like, if I need to use my voice, or my ears to be present and have something work through me – I mean, actually I’ve never mentioned this before, but when I was writing my book, The Spenders Guide to Debt-Free Living, I said — I had a note that I was like, let this book be the message that I need to deliver. Not anything about what I need to say about this spending fast method, or whatever, but it was let this the voice of whatever it needs to be to guide people to where they need to be.
This is just this –
ERIN LINEHAN: So good.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: – quote. It’s like, once you take yourself out of it, you can show up for others.
ERIN LINEHAN: Absolutely.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: That’s been the most fulfilling part of like, writing the book and being like, “You know what? I have taken my ego out of it. I’m going to present it.” Also showing up in relationships and being like, this is how I’m showing up in these relationships. It’s way more fulfilling.
ERIN LINEHAN: Yes, because ultimately, I sent Anna a text earlier. It’s like, “Oh, this is what it is.” When we show up like that for people, that ultimately that we are displaying to them a core human belief is that we matter. When we show up for someone and we can listen, then you are in your actions and how you show up, that is that you’re displaying to that person that they matter. Ultimately, that’s what everyone just needs.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, they want to be seen. They want to be heard and they want to be validated. In arguments, it’s just like –
AMY MOORE: How painful is that when you’re not. Super painful.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. People come to see you all the time, because of all that. Sure. Yeah.
AMY MOORE: All right, Celeste Headlee TED Talk, titled How to Have a Good Conversation can be found on YouTube and we will put that on our website.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yup and the episode show notes.
AMY MOORE: Some notes from that are, one, don’t multitask, don’t be half in and half out. Two, don’t pontificate. Write a blog if you want to state your opinion in a monologue. “Enter every conversation assuming you have something to learn.”
ERIN LINEHAN: Which is so good.
AMY MOORE: So good. That is –
ANNA NEWELL JONES: That’s like the being curious.
AMY MOORE: Yes. That quote is by Celeste Headlee herself. Number three, use open-ended questions. Tell me more? What was that like?
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Those are your questions, Erin.
AMY MOORE: Number four, go with the flow. Number five, if you don’t know, say you don’t know. Err on the side of caution. Number six, don’t equate your experience to their experience. I know exactly how that feels. It is not about you.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Oh, that’s so good.
AMY MOORE: Very important. Number seven, try not to repeat yourself. Stop rephrasing it.
ERIN LINEHAN: Especially if someone’s not getting it. She used the example with kids, like don’t keep on saying the same thing over and over again. Even when I did my dog training, they were like, “She’s got it. She just doesn’t want to do it.” Yeah. Stop telling her to sit.
AMY MOORE: Number eight is stay out of the weeds. Details are boring. They care about you. Nine, listen, we talk too much and get distracted. 10, be brief. Then finally, be interested in other people. The part of being a good friend is listening. When you have a good conversation and someone talks to you about something vulnerable, follow-up, send a text, call, email, check in with people.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: That’s so good. Okay, so I have a friend who was recently going through a difficult situation. I was worried that I would not remember to check in on her. I put a reminder in my phone, just a weekly reminder of check in with so-and-so. It was just like, okay, I just need to touch base with her.
I think when people are dealing with difficult situations, they don’t know what to do, so they ghost and that’s so hurtful. If you can just say, “How are you doing? Just let me show up and be present in your life right now in this difficult time.” It really goes a long way.
AMY MOORE: It can be so simple. It doesn’t have to be this extravagant. That text can be so simple.
ERIN LINEHAN: Right. I think that even when people are going through crisis and then their crisis lasts for a while, but those feelings don’t necessarily go away overnight obviously, and so then checking in periodically, even if it’s months out like, “Hey, how’s this situation?” Not forgetting about that is a big, big, big deal. I think in building connection and how to be a good person and friend.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, and maintaining that friendship and staying connected. Then you let them know that I heard you and I know it’s a difficult time and I’m going to show up for you and be here.
AMY MOORE: That brings us to maintaining and keeping friendships.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Oh, that was a good segue too.
AMY MOORE: It is. I don’t know – it’s like.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Gosh. What are we? Freaking experts here?
AMY MOORE: How does this happen? Yeah. A couple things, Erin, you want to jump into this one?
ERIN LINEHAN: Sure. Consistency and routine. I think that checking in up with following people. You overheard this at a coffee shop?
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah. Actually, it just so happened we’re talking about doing this podcast and I just so happened to overhear this conversation of people saying, “It takes so much time to maintain friendships.” Okay, and that brings me to this thought of if it feels like work to have a friend, that might be a big old signal that something’s a little off. Yeah, it shouldn’t take that much work, right?
ERIN LINEHAN: Right.
AMY MOORE: I agree.
ERIN LINEHAN: Yes.
AMY MOORE: It shouldn’t be a burden. I like to have friends where I feel I want to show up for them. I want to be there for them. I want to be vulnerable with them. I want them to be vulnerable with me. I want them to feel safe. I want to feel safe. If that’s off, or that’s just too much of a struggle, or you get those feelings.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Or like a stretcher. You’re like, “Uh.” Big red flag.
AMY MOORE: Maybe it’s time to move on.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: We’re actually going to talk about that in the next episode, how to be a terrible friend?
AMY MOORE: I’ve been that too.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I feel like we’ve all been there.
ERIN LINEHAN: Absolutely. One more thing about maintaining friends is that compassionate people are often the most boundaried people. What that means is that if we say yes from a centered place, then I’m not saying yes to you out of obligation. If I say yes, it’s because – I feel like I have to, then that builds resentment and that begins the toxic seeds in relationships.
The more boundaried we are, not that we – we’re not barriered, right? It’s not – we don’t let anything in. We just like, you know where you are and I know where I am and we don’t – we can respect that and people that respect our boundaries, then we can be compassionate, because we can actually show up wholeheartedly and be there for that person and they can be there for us.
AMY MOORE: Yes. I really like that distinction you just said. Barriered versus boundaried. That’s big. I like that.
ERIN LINEHAN: We don’t need a big ole wall. It’s nice to know where I begin and where you begin.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Well, and I think that directness comes in. That’s so, so, so helpful. There’s actually a really good book about this. It’s called Boundaries.
AMY MOORE: Oh, good.
ERIN LINEHAN: Hey, who would’ve thought?
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Super creative name. Actually, just tell us what it is. That’s very direct. We’ll link to that. It is a little Bible-y and if that’s your thing, great. What I did when I was reading and as I tried to look for the things that I related to and the things that resonated with me, rather than paying too much attention to that language.
It is very, very good and it was helpful with the idea of even our skin is a boundary. The idea of a fence is a boundary. We have physical boundaries, and so we have to have boundaries in our world emotionally and relationally to be able to have healthy relationships.
ERIN LINEHAN: Well yeah, because if the river floods and it’s not boundaried, right? Then it destroys a lot of things.
AMY MOORE: Yeah. Oh, that’s good. All right, so the nugget that we leave with, or the awareness challenge. What do you all think?
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I think we should do a listening challenge.
ERIN LINEHAN: I think that is a great plan.
AMY MOORE: Nice
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Just shut your mouth.
AMY MOORE: Are you active listening challenge, or just see how much you can just be quiet and listen? That’s the challenge. I like that.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, I think so.
ERIN LINEHAN: Be in the conversation and not distracted. Yeah.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, not zoned out.
AMY MOORE: Engaged listening.
ERIN LINEHAN: Yeah, engaged listening.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: I’m sitting here meditating. What was that? No, I’m just kidding.
AMY MOORE: All right, thanks for joining us everybody. A couple things to leave you with, don’t forget to go to Less Alone Podcast for the show notes and transcript. Also, we want to give an extra special thank you for our music, both for the intro and outro. Music is called Night Owl by Broke For Free, from the album Directionless EP. We love you. Thank you.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Yeah, thank you.
ERIN LINEHAN: Thanks.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Hey, you guys anyone want to get coffee?
AMY MOORE: Sounds good.
ANNA NEWELL JONES: Okay.
[END OF EPISODE]
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